BBO Discussion Forums: avoidable mistakes, signaling discussion part III - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

avoidable mistakes, signaling discussion part III More on 7nt

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-14, 22:45

This is a continuation of the thread on avoidable mistakes...
first thread
2nd thread

PUZZLE ONE
This hand was a beginner level mistake. Your default agreement is standard carding. Even before we play to trick one, we do a little simple math. Declarer's 15-17 hcp, plus dummy's 18 hcp, plus our 6hcp. If declarer didn't open light (with 14), the heart jack is the only hcp partner can hold. At most partner might have the J if declarer opened with only 14.

In an effort to discuss how to communication between partners is a critically important, let's ask, what information -- if any do you want to share with partner, and what information, if any, you need from him.

Your partner seems to have gotten off to less than the ideal lead, allowing declarer 4 tricks (click next four times to see the first four tricks and the play to 5th trick). After four tricks, what do you discard on the last heart? What information do we need from partner and how are we suppose to get this info?

The options here, is partner has only three hearts, in which case declarer has 5, 3, 2 and 2 that is still only 12 tricks. If declarer has 3 or 4's, he only has 4tricks, plus 3, 2, 2 for 11 top tricks. IF we discard a spade, we run the risk of declarer having 5, if we discard a diamond, we run the risk of declarer having 4 to AT, if we discard a third club, we run the risk of declarer having 4 to the jack, where each of those discards risk awarding declarer two extra tricks.

But perhaps we can discard a diamond, because partner could have the ten of diamonds ( Txx(x)).

Most of us (me included) would see the low spade from partner as "three spades", since declarer needs the AK for his bid, he didn't open off-shape 1nt with a singleton spade Ace, and thus abandon our spades. With no further agreements, a spade discard is clearly called for, and it your agreements are limited to the stated condition in this post, not discarding a spade on the 4th heart is a clear mistake. But what if the 4 was a singleton? A spade discard is fatal. Is there any reasonable carding agreements that would allow you to correctly defend this hand to defeat 7NT if partner has either a singleton spade or three spades.


--Ben--

#2 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2012-February-15, 04:28

Did 5H show 5 hearts or did it show something else? Was 4NT blackwood?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#3 User is offline   Antrax 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,458
  • Joined: 2011-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-15, 04:45

If the hand is from BBO, 4NT is a quant. invite and 5 is how many aces you have.
0

#4 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2012-February-15, 07:11

It's a bit strange to first make a quant. invite and then jump to 7NT. I suspect that 4NT was really intended as blackwood and that opener knew.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#5 User is offline   BunnyGo 

  • Lamentable Bunny
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,505
  • Joined: 2008-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, ME

Posted 2012-February-15, 08:29

The only signal besides the low spade that partner could have given is his choice of playing the T then 9 of hearts. If partner had 3 hearts (giving declarer 5) he could have played the 9 then Ten. If partner had 4 hearts, he didn't have to play the 9 the second time (as declarer had the marked finesse). Either way, it's a signal "high". What's it mean? Dunno...

Besides this, it seems a guess to me. Did declarer start with 5 spades? Probably not, unless he started with exactly 3 hearts (if he were 54 in the majors, I wouldn't expect a 1 NT bid). Did declarer start with 5 hearts? If so, then I can unguard spades. The only time unguarding spades is wrong is when declarer is exactly 53(32)--a possibility. In that case I have to unguard the correct minor.

Seems like ditching the spade requires the smallest parley, and that partner's signal is "high", and so that's what I'll do.

Spoiler

Bridge Personality: 44 44 43 34

Never tell the same lie twice. - Elim Garek on the real moral of "The boy who cried wolf"
0

#6 User is offline   Phil 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,092
  • Joined: 2008-December-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Texas, USA
  • Interests:Mountain Biking

Posted 2012-February-15, 10:25

I do not consider this a beginner level problem at all.

Spoiler

Hi y'all!

Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
0

#7 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-15, 10:55

View Posthan, on 2012-February-15, 07:11, said:

It's a bit strange to first make a quant. invite and then jump to 7NT. I suspect that 4NT was really intended as blackwood and that opener knew.


This was a bbo hand and I don't have an explanation of the bidding, but looking at the hands, I would say Han gave the best answer, that and south did have two aces.
--Ben--

#8 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-15, 11:10

View PostPhil, on 2012-February-15, 10:25, said:

I do not consider this a beginner level problem at all.


Let me address this.... with what I said in the hand post.

View Postinquiry, on 2012-February-14, 22:45, said:

Most of us (me included) would see the low spade from partner as "three spades", since declarer needs the AK for his bid, he didn't open off-shape 1nt with a singleton spade Ace, and thus abandon our spades. With no further agreements, a spade discard is clearly called for, and it your agreements are limited to the stated condition in this post, not discarding a spade on the 4th heart is a clear mistake.



On the actual hand, the east player pitched a diamond, allowing declarer to score 4 because south held the ATxx (not shown). I could have left it at what do you discard after you get a spade count on the first round of the suit. You did see that I pointed out that I would have gone with the spade discard after the spade count.

The play shown is what actually happened at the table, including all the spots, and the club Ten. I didn't edit those. What I meant was what cards would YOUR perfect partner had played with different holdings (you are free to "change" the cards he played if it is significant to you). After all, the assumption is if partner is going to signal something, he would have to play one way with one hand holding, and A DIFFERENT WAY, with a different holding. I accept that this is hard problem IF declarer has 5, but I thought it might be an interesting place to get input on signaling. The key, if there is a key, is what would partner's hand look like if he had only 1 and how might that affect a sequence of plays. If a singleton spade affects his plays, it has to be consistent with your signaling agreements, of course, when he does not have a singleton.
--Ben--

#9 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-15, 18:14


I wasn't going to show this hand in this forum --maybe in advanced but not here -- but it relates the hypothetical problem I asked on the last hand about determing what partner could do with a singleton spade. While admitting that this hand (and the last hand with a singleton spade) is outside the general intermediate level, I will note that signaling should be something intermediates should be studying, and can be mastered by them -- although not at the level of these two hands. What I like about this hand (and the problem with the last hand IF west had a singleton spade) is signaling needs to be carefully considered even with crappy hands.

At trick one, your partner's 2 was count signal showing EVEN NUMBER of diamonds. Your opponents open 4-4 in the minors, 1, so you are all but certain that your partner has two diamonds (if this declarer was 1=3=4=5 he would have reversed to 2 instead of jumping to 2NT). Declarer plays the Q to trick two.

As this in the intermediate forum, let me make an obvious observation, your partner already knows a good bit about your hand from simple math. Declarer has 18 to 19 HCP, dummy has 17, you have none, so partner has between four and five HCP. If partner has four, he might think you could hold as much as a jack, if he has five HCP, he will expect you to have no HCP.

Fair warning, you have to have sound carding agreements, and get two major signaling concepts right to surely defeat this contract. I don't think playing just standard or udca alone will work here. But lets ask, what would you WANT to signal partner if you could? Remember, he already knows you have next to nothing, and you know with the possible exception of the J, partners 4 to 5 HCP are in the majors.


--Ben--

#10 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-15, 18:45

After two difficult ones, we will pause for a very easy one, that yes, the defense got wrong at the table. This is clearly a beginner one.

Your partner led the Q to trick one, you have the matching T and sufficient length to be a stopper. Do you signal count or attitude here. This is not a trick question, just want to know that for each player what their agreement would be.

You quickly discover, as you suspected, you will need to make a three discards on diamonds, what will these three discards be and what are you trying to show with these discards. A 2nd unrelated question, do you signal "count in diamonds" here as East? If not count, does the order you play your three diamond spot cards have any significance or are you just following suit.

--Ben--

#11 User is offline   BunnyGo 

  • Lamentable Bunny
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,505
  • Joined: 2008-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, ME

Posted 2012-February-15, 19:38

In the second problem, declarer has 4 diamond tricks, 3-5 club tricks (but if it is 5 the hand is over, so assume it is at most 4) and 4 tricks in the majors. If he has 2 of:

a) Q of S
b) Q of H
c) KHxx(x) of C

then he has 13 top tricks.

I expect declarer's shape (excluding 5 clubs) to be one of:

3334
3433
2434

In the cases that he has 4 clubs it'd be nice (but not necessary) that partner had JTx of clubs. However, since partner has at most 5 points, he needs his major suit queens to be protected with jacks, otherwise they are finessable (and declarer has time to get count on the hand).

Actually, I don't understand how partner will ever need help. Either he has protected queens or not, and either he has the clubs or not. As long as he comes down to QJx in the suit with the protected queen, what goes wrong?

Say partner has Jxxx, QJx, xx, JTxx then he needs to pitch clubs. But either way there's a squeeze for the 13th trick...

I'm going to end this long rambling post here. I can't think of any hand where partner can have enough for there to not be a squeeze or easy finesse for the 13th trick.
Bridge Personality: 44 44 43 34

Never tell the same lie twice. - Elim Garek on the real moral of "The boy who cried wolf"
0

#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2012-February-16, 05:20

View Postinquiry, on 2012-February-15, 18:45, said:

Your partner led the Q to trick one, you have the matching T and sufficient length to be a stopper. Do you signal count or attitude here. This is not a trick question, just want to know that for each player what their agreement would be.

Assuming no advanced signals are in play: Attitude.


View Postinquiry, on 2012-February-15, 18:45, said:

A 2nd unrelated question, do you signal "count in diamonds" here as East? If not count, does the order you play your three diamond spot cards have any significance or are you just following suit.

The first diamond would normally be count but here it is obvious to both defenders that count is pointless so it is suit preference. If you only play sp here then the order J84 would be a strong signal for spades (the King?) and 48J a strong signal for clubs. Then 84J is no preference and 8J4 a strong signal for hearts. That leaves J48 and 4J8 as weak signals for hearts and clubs respectively. If you play something more advanced then the first card 4, 8 or J is suit preference and the second card is the surrogate signal, presumably count in spades here.

Talking of more advanced methods, a good alternative might be to give count on the opening lead and then the first diamond is attitude in spades, or the reverse. In this case the second diamond should be suit preference between hearts and clubs.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#13 User is offline   Antrax 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,458
  • Joined: 2011-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-16, 07:18

On the "easy" one, Ideally I'd like to show partner I have clubs locked up and that I have nothing in hearts. I used to think the Q is a good discard here as it should show the J, but on another thread the notion was that pitching the club Q should tell partner he needs to guard clubs.
On that spirit, I'll pitch the 7 which shows I don't like hearts and follow up with the heart 8 and 9 to show the 7 was "low".

On the first trick I would play low - otherwise partner might think I have the K when declarer wins the ace.
If the K was led from dummy, I would give count in diamonds on the off-chance partner can hold up the ace. Similarly if a diamond is led to the K. If declarer unblocks the A neither of us will give count, and I won't think to play the diamond spots in any interesting order.
0

#14 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-16, 14:48

View PostAntrax, on 2012-February-16, 07:18, said:

On the "easy" one, Ideally I'd like to show partner I have clubs locked up and that I have nothing in hearts. I used to think the Q is a good discard here as it should show the J, but on another thread the notion was that pitching the club Q should tell partner he needs to guard clubs.
On that spirit, I'll pitch the 7 which shows I don't like hearts and follow up with the heart 8 and 9 to show the 7 was "low".

On the first trick I would play low - otherwise partner might think I have the K when declarer wins the ace.
If the K was led from dummy, I would give count in diamonds on the off-chance partner can hold up the ace. Similarly if a diamond is led to the K. If declarer unblocks the A neither of us will give count, and I won't think to play the diamond spots in any interesting order.


There are no real right or wrong answers, on a question like this. Your carding is what you and your partner agree. For me, if I discard the queen of clubs early (first discard) I am telling partner I have clubs. If you think an honor discard should always be some kind of alarm clock play, then that is fine. If I discard an honor like the queen of clubs later on a hand, then I am giving up that suit. The strategy to abandon hearts, will make it clear to your partner that you are saving clubs, especially if you played a discouraging spade at trick one. A question for you, you discarded all three hearts, starting with the seven. For you, does the sequence in which you play your last two hearts matter? That is, if you play 7-8-9 have any more or less significance than if you play 7-9-8. Both sequences show that the seven was low, so that part of the signal (to confirm to your partner that you don't like hearts) is satisfied. If you assign some meaning to the two sequences, one of them would have to be either the meaning you defined or nothing to signal (alas, sometimes that will be true).

I wouldn't worry too much about partner having the diamond ace. He didn't double and lead it to trick one after all (not to mention there is at least a heart and a club entry to dummy to take care of any ducking issues). So count in diamonds, while most often is given, surely is not necessary here. So your diamond plays could be random, count -- because you have no other agreement --, suit preference, count in some other suit, attitude for spades assuming first play was count, or count for spades if first was attitude, etc. Of course, it is best not to make this stuff up on the fly, you have to have an agreement before the hand is ever played and use the carding consistently so partner can rely upon it. In the alternative methods (only at notrump), the play to the first suit declarer leads is suit preference. So if you where playing that, you could show, for instance, something in spades or something in perhaps is clubs or even something in hearts (middle-up-down, or middle-down-up). Just a thought... as the alternative method will be used on the other two puzzle hands.

This problem might not be as easy as I implied to get it right, but I meant the defensive carding was relatively easy. Part of this easy problem is that your partner it seems, will be stuck with watching hearts, especially if you totally abandon that suit. If you carded the way you said you would, your partner would play perfect defense and keep his hearts (which he must do on this hand). But that alone is not enough to set the hand, let's see why.

You can imagine your partner's hand on this auction. Declarer has 18-19 points, dummy had only 13, and you had 4. That gives partner from 4 to 5 hcp. You have seen, presumably three of those (QJ).So the most he can be expected to have is 2 hcp. These one or two points can only be in hearts, so partner has the heart queen or the heart jack. If it is the heart jack, declarer has 13 tricks (6d, 2s, 3h, 2c). If it the heart queen, partner will also need the heart ten, but declarer has 12 sure tricks (6d, 2s, 3h, 2c). You have clubs stopped, and your partner was never going to hold onto anything in clubs, no matter what you signaled, just your signal gives him some comfort... and more importantly, your partner will count your hand and know how many hcp you could hold. He will see the diamond jack, and if you signal with the club Q, he will count you for the club jack. So partner will see "four" points in your hand. He knows you don't have the J, and if you had the J you have abandoned that suit.

In the ending, your partner will have to keep the QTx to have a chance to defeat this, as noted above. So declarer's last four cards will be (perhaps) the Kx Kx. This means, your partner will not be able to keep the J9 (we assume he has the nine for leading the Q without the ten). So towards the end of this hand, this might become a class III hand, in that you will have to realize that you need to keep both of your spades. If your partner believes your discouraging signal in spades, he might make a mistake and throw a hearts to keep spades (playing you for the J. You can discourage him from doing something so foolish by, 1) signalling you like spades (we can discuss the ways this can be done, depending upon your agreement, without throwing a spade away -- which is of course, fatal to the defense), and 2) that you are keeping clubs and/or not keeping hearts.

At trick one, you could signal you like spades, then show the club values and the J. Partner will work out that your spade attitude is based upon the Tx(x). You could use your diamond cards to signal value in spades (high diamond, then low to show value in a higher suit). The right way would probably be J, then middle then low diamond for me. This would show (as part of the alternative method) spade value, then odd number of spades originally. Or you can use lavinthal discards, discard a high heart (no value in hearts, value in spades), then discard the club queen the very next trick.

The key signal, however, is that your are giving up hearts. If you convey that you are giving up hearts, partner has no choice but to play you for the T.



Of course, by throwing all your hearts away, you talk south out of the "obvious" heart finesse for a potential 13th trick. If east ever throws a spade, the hand is over.



--Ben--

#15 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-16, 14:54

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-February-16, 05:20, said:

Assuming no advanced signals are in play: Attitude.



The first diamond would normally be count but here it is obvious to both defenders that count is pointless so it is suit preference. If you only play sp here then the order J84 would be a strong signal for spades (the King?) and 48J a strong signal for clubs. Then 84J is no preference and 8J4 a strong signal for hearts. That leaves J48 and 4J8 as weak signals for hearts and clubs respectively. If you play something more advanced then the first card 4, 8 or J is suit preference and the second card is the surrogate signal, presumably count in spades here.

Talking of more advanced methods, a good alternative might be to give count on the opening lead and then the first diamond is attitude in spades, or the reverse. In this case the second diamond should be suit preference between hearts and clubs.


Excellent discussing. And yes, even if your agreement on first suit played by declarer is not routinely s/p (as proposed in the alternative signalling method), situations like this as zelandakh points out are ideal for a different agreement, because count is meaningless here. Well stated, and that is the type of discussion I was aiming for. What you agree with your regular partner is up to you, but if I played with some random expert partner, I would assume the sequence she played her diamond cards to have s/p meaning, at the very least.
--Ben--

#16 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-16, 23:59

View PostBunnyGo, on 2012-February-15, 19:38, said:

Say partner has Jxxx, QJx, xx, JTxx then he needs to pitch clubs. But either way there's a squeeze for the 13th trick...

I'm going to end this long rambling post here. I can't think of any hand where partner can have enough for there to not be a squeeze or easy finesse for the 13th trick.


Puzzle two is tough, it is hard to say how tough, I am bad at judging levels, but this is clearly a class III type hand as you need to visualize possible problems for partner from trick one. You were on the right track, but you gave up a little early. Partner is going to come under pressure immediately only if he might think he has to hold onto clubs, hearts and spades. But looking at your hand, you know that whatever your partner's clubs are, he can discard those on diamonds (as you said the bolded part I quoted). Partner will know that if he has three clubs or less, his clubs will never be a stopper (give partner, for instance 4=4=2=3 distribution) and he will know he can afford to toss clubs, even with JTx. But if partner has four clubs, you know he doesn't have to hold to them (after all, you also have four leaving declarer with only three). Thus, whatever partner has, he can pitch clubs. You need to share this information, assuming you have a way to do so. The same sort of thing can happen on the theoretical position I raised on the first puzzle hand if partner has a singleton spade.

It would be nice if you could signal to your partner that you hold four clubs, but I don't know a way to do that. Even if you gave substitute count in this situation and the applicable suit was dummy's short suit, the best you could do is show an even number of clubs, your partner might not know if it was two or four (if he had four, he might assume it showed two). In guide dog, part II, Krzysztof Martens recommends the use of Vinjie signals (he calls them complex count) by a player when the other partner can work out that the player is broke (like this hand). The complex count is you would give a signal that says you have either three even number or one even number suit length. There are examples in his book where this signal makes killing defense possible. i am not sure such a signal would be of any use here. You could signal three even and one odd by playing low diamond. Partner will work out 4 diamonds, but he will not know your other suits as there is not much distributional clues from the bidding. If partner is 4-3-2-4 for instance, your 3 even and one odd could be 1=4=4=4 if declarer has hidden 4 card spade support, or 3=4=4=2, or 2=3=4=4, or 3=2=4=4 for instance.

I am still fond of the S/P signal on the first suit declarer leads, so for me, on the 2nd round of diamonds (first suit declarer plays), I would play a low diamond signaling value in clubs -- despite not having values there. This gets you over the first hump in the defense, as it turns out, partner did have four clubs (without the jack as it turns out). Partner should work out that this signal must show four clubs.

That would have been the first of the two huddles I eluded too when showing this hand. Declarer cashes four diamonds, discarding a spade, and then plays Club Ace and overtakes the club queen with the king, and plays the club jack. Partner has parted with two clubs on the diamonds, so to this third club, he is going to have to come down six cards and discard his first major suit card. Can he hold a hand where his card makes a difference?

He could have four spades and three hearts, or four hearts and three spades. From your hand you should be able to see if partner holds 4 and 3 he is going to be squeezed or finessed, nothing you can do about it. Let;s imagine partner has J9xx QJT you can see he is squeezed because your highest heart is too low (you would need the seven). If partner has 3 and four hearts, your partner will be psuedo squeezed. The reason being declarer will have three hearts and (originally) four spades. If partner has the QJx and heart JT9x, he will play you to have the T, but tripleton.

So the only hand where it makes any difference what you do, partner might get it wrong. For like you, he will assume declarer only has three spades and thus four hearts, so he will discard from the QJx hoping you have the spade ten (which you did), but also a third spade (which you don't). So the question is, how do you show to your partner that you have two spades and/or three hearts as you follow to four rounds of diamonds and three rounds of clubs. Of course, if you have methods to do this, they must be within your normal defensive carding agreements (this is not a place to make this stuff on the run). It is sort of funny, in a way, but with your blizzard of a hand, you can see that 1, it is safe for partner to throw clubs at trick 1, and 2 that if partner is 4=3=2=4 there is no defense, so partner has to be 3=4=2=4 to have a chance and partner has to throw hearts to have a chance to defeat this contract. From partner's side neither of these views are that easy to see. Here is the full hand. Using the alternative signaling method, you would signal club value, then substitute count in clubs (dummy's shortest suit) and then on play in clubs, you would signal substitute count in hearts (the shorter of the remaining suits in dummy, which would be enough to get the defense right, if your partner played that stuff. I am still trying to see how vinjie signals would help.

--Ben--

#17 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-17, 22:57

Puzzle one was just meant to be a simple little novice hand. On the first round of spades, West gives a spade count, and can north throw spades away. Simple hand, as I said, because if all you have to go on is spade count, it is.

click through to the point of commitment for EAST (trick 8, east has 3-3-3 left and has to play on dummy's last heart). At the table, east hung tight to his spades, choosing to discard an amazing diamond on the last heart. which you can see, gave declarer two diamond tricks!! Even a club discard, which gives declarer a club trick, does not allow the contract to make, but a spade discard seems safest (opposite three spades with west).

That was the entire point of the hand when I decided to post it, but then I stuck my foot in my mouth and raised the hypothetical question, what if partner's spade was a singleton (see example next hand)?

Is it possible to have gotten a clue during the play as east that would allow you to save spades and discard the necessary diamond (a club amazingly is still ok). This wasn't the case, as we can see (this is the real hand), but the question exist is there a way that partner can figure out what you need to know and signal it to you?


beginners/intermediates, stop reading now... sorry about complicating this hand, drinking scotch and writing post make for some rambling off topic thoughts....

NEEDLESS to say, I have been into the scotch again tonight.... Posted Image The following is my ideas using the alternative signaling methods. In the past I gave count followed by s/p when following suit with spot cards. While I have played s/p signals in some obvious situations where count is meaningless for years, and used the trump suit for s/p for years as well, I have only recently started using s/p in the first suit played by declarer at notrump (some obvious exceptions, for instance if count is necessary to help partner know how long to hold up a winner). To this, I have added substitute counts as recommended by Martens' books. It does make the game more interesting on defense, but the first few weeks you try to do this, you will screw up a good number of hands until you remember what you play has meaning (or not) and can dramatically alter your partners play (but that is the point, if done right). You also have to remember, sometimes you just have to play a card with nothing to signal and often you will have to wait until your partner plays two cards to be able to see if the first was a signal at all. Anyway, on to the hypothetical I raised in a fit of insanity when posting the beginner level hand.

This would be one hypothetical hand if south had five spades.

West knows that east has a balanced hand that includes 15=17 hcp.

West knows a lot about the hand. He knows east had a singleton heart and a value/stopper from the club discard -- and -- east started with at least four clubs. Sadly that knowledge comes at the end of trick two, and West will need to start EFFECTIVE SIGNALING at the beginning of trick two. It Is true that playing standard count, WEST would know that east would not play the 3 from 63 or 53 doubleton. So for standard players, they would know at trick one the heart was partner's only one. Udca players will not, because the 3 is the correct card from 3 singleton or 53 or 63 doubleton. This uncertainty would complicate life for a udca player (but if partner had played the 6, it would have had to be a singleton for udca players, but standard players would not know if partner had a doubleton or singleton). Let's pretend for this discussion that east played the five, where no one knows if east could have 65 doubleton playing udca or 53 doubleton playing standard.

WEST also knows about the two aces (blackwood), the heart king (trick one) for 11 hcp. As a defender, with only one spade in your hand, it is safe to assume declarer has no play if partner has the king of spades (no place to throw all south's spades away), so you can mentally place that card with south, giving him a total of 14 HCP, and leaving the j, QJ and QJ unaccounted for. Declarer can have, at most, three more hcp, so three jacks, one queen and one jack, all the way down to just one jack. (he can not have both queens).

With a singleton spade, west also knows that north will have 4 to 6 spades. Looking at west's hand, it is clear partner will have to keep the black suit, as we have nothing that resembles a black suit stopper. BUT, we have a lot of diamonds, what you could call a "distributional (non)stopper." If declarer has 3 or more diamonds, partner only has two (or less) diamonds, and he can afford to throw at least one of those away, in fact, lets look at the hands partner might hold bearing in mind, if partner holds 3 (the most he can hold) the worse they can be is JT9, AND THE BEST QJT, but either way, he can afford to discard diamonds because of our "distributional (non)stopper". Can partner find a diamond discard?

IF PARTNER HAS ONE HEART
  • 5=1=3=4 <- can afford to throw 1, 3, and maybe a club (if his top club is the queen) - finding diamond from QJ9 or better might be hard
  • 5=1=2=5 <- can throw 1s, 2c safely enough, can also throw a d
  • 5=1=1=6 <- no discard problems
  • 6=1=2=4 <- no discard problems
  • 6=1=1=5 <- no discard problems
  • 4=1=3=5 <- must throw at least one diamond, the clubs
  • 4=1=2=6 <- can throw three clubs, or 2 clubs and a diamond, or 1 club and two diamonds, so no problem discarding

As you can see, partner might have trouble discarding a diamond when he has too to keep black suit winners. If partner has two hearts, he has to find only one discard. So with TWO HEARTS
  • 4-2-2-5 he can always afford a club
  • 4-2-3-4 he can afford a club if he has the Q,
  • 4-2-3-4 if he has JT and QJ9 he has to let go of a diamond
  • 5-2-any he can always afford a spade, so no discard problem
  • 6-2-any he can always afford a spade, so no problem
In all of these cases, when partner has a problem the solution hand the solution is going to be for him to throw a diamond. That will be very hard for him especially if he holds QJT (I don't see how the fellow discarded a diamond on the original hand),

This is a difficult signaling situation for a variety of reasons. First, you can not afford to play low on the 2nd round of hearts in case south has Kx doubleton. Normally, I would play the 4 on 2nd round then 2 on third round to try to focus on the suit. But playing low allows him to steal a fourth heart trick unjustly if he had Kx. So you must play the TEN or the NINE. The first question is, which of these cards are the normal play for you (for me, it is the ten, the known card and high from sequence is normal). Playing the nine has to have a special meaning, playing the TEN denies that special meaning. What you want to show is diamonds.... for me, I would play the 9 to show value in a lower suit, partner will not know which, if he has the QJ he might assume clubs, but he would know it is not spades.

So in this situation, the T would be the neutral card (remember in the alternative method, generally playing low card s/p is something in lower suit, or I just had to play a card, but when playing from a known sequence when declarer leads, the high card is something higher or I just had to play that card). Playing the nine will alert your partner to something. In the alternative method, generally the 2nd free card I play in a suit played by declarer is alternative count. So, on the third round of hearts, I would play the two of clubs. Alternative count is often in the suit we played to trick one, that is out here. The next choice is in dummy's shortest suit, and if the shortest suit is tied with another short suit, then lowest ranking. So the heart two would say an even number of clubs. With five, partner will work OUT that I have only two clubs, so the s/p had to be in diamonds.

As amazing as it seems, this method, at least on this hand, could result in you getting the defense right if you hold one spade (play heart 9, spade 4, heart 2) or 3, play a normal T, 4 followed by 2. This also means that if you begin playing your cards in some careless way, you could have your partner doing silly things like what happened at the original table with the real hand. This signaling method will make these boring very weak hands more interesting to play to try to keep from screwing your partner up on simple hands.... Posted Image

Also note the importance of the use of "distributional (non)stoppers" here in diamonds, and in puzzle two in clubs. At the table, you don't have to work all this out playing alternative method, you would play the 9 and 2 to signal long diamonds and even number of clubs and hope for the best. In the first hand, you would play T and 2 to signal nothing to show (or spades) and an even number of club, and the defense might just solve itself without too much thought.

--Ben--

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users