[straube]

Many months ago I posted our 1S-2D bid which shows hearts and a GI hand and I got a lot of good suggestions regarding this. I'd like to expand the use to include hands with 5+ hcps and 6 hearts to hands that plan to game force but aren't very interested in slam. 1S-2C is a GF relay bid btw.

1S-2D
.....2H-other, misfitting
.....2S-6 spades, most strengths
.....2N-max, 2 hearts
.....3m-max, 5/5
.....3H-min, 3 hearts
.....3S-6 spades, very max
.....splinters?

Anyone like these rebids? How would responder continue? I'd like to make it possible for both/either opener or responder to show a second 5-cd suit and be able to play in it at the 3-level. I'd also like to have responder be able to show hearts and then rebid 2S or 2N to show a generic invitation to game.

[awm]

What's wrong with the following simple structure for opener's rebids:

2♥ = 0-2♥ not qualified for higher bids, or 3♥ in a min balanced hand
2♠ = very short hearts, 6+♠, not enough for 3♠
2N/3m = same hand that bids these over 1♠-1NT, with the additional inference of less than 3♥
3♥ = 3♥ and not a balanced min, or 4♥ with a very min/flat hand
3♠ = same as 1♠-1NT-3♠, but also denies 3♥
4m = splinter with 4(+)♥

After 1♠-2♦-2♥ or 1♠-2♦-2♠, basically all non-pass bids are natural and invitational. Normally 51(43) types bid 2NT, 5/5 for bidding 3m, 2♠ shows doubleton.
After 1♠-2♦-2N/3m/3♠, basically same as if you started 1♠-1N(forcing) and the same rebid, except that there is no need to show a heart suit unless 6+ and good quality.

[straube]

awm, on 2012-January-19, 21:49, said:

What's wrong with the following simple structure for opener's rebids:

2♥ = 0-2♥ not qualified for higher bids, or 3♥ in a min balanced hand
2♠ = very short hearts, 6+♠, not enough for 3♠
2N/3m = same hand that bids these over 1♠-1NT, with the additional inference of less than 3♥
3♥ = 3♥ and not a balanced min, or 4♥ with a very min/flat hand
3♠ = same as 1♠-1NT-3♠, but also denies 3♥
4m = splinter with 4(+)♥

After 1♠-2♦-2♥ or 1♠-2♦-2♠, basically all non-pass bids are natural and invitational. Normally 51(43) types bid 2NT, 5/5 for bidding 3m, 2♠ shows doubleton.
After 1♠-2♦-2N/3m/3♠, basically same as if you started 1♠-1N(forcing) and the same rebid, except that there is no need to show a heart suit unless 6+ and good quality.

I like it. After 1S-1N, 2N shows 6S/5m and 3m shows 5S/6m...both medium+ hands.

So we'll let opener show 6/5 or 5/6 but responder can show a 5/5.

[straube]

So I'm expanding this topic a bit for anyone who wants to contribute. We've been using 1S-2C as an artificial GF.
Is it legal to use it as an artificial bid promising invitational+?

So 1S-2C,
.....2D-bal, 4+C or 5+D
.....2H-6+ spades, SS
.....2S-4 diamonds
.....2N-5 hearts
.....etc-4 hearts

and now we break relay when possible. E.g. 1S-2C, 2H-3S is nf

Then...

1S-
.....2D-6+ hearts or 5+ only GI+, not serious about slam
.....2H-constructive+ raise with 3 trump
.....2S-raise
.....2N-LR+ with 4 trump
.....3m-weak jump shift
.....3H-mixed raise
.....3S-weak
.....3N-heart splinter
.....4m-splinters
.....4M-to play

[awm]

Is it legal: on the mid-chart it should be.
Is it a good idea: unclear; you will have some trouble reaching a playable spot on the invites since opener may zoom past 2N without a Max or a fit. Also competition is more of an issue.

[straube]

That's true. I'm thinking the GI hands would only be in a range of something less than a point. We normally force game on a misfitting 14 ct. So we'd throw a medium/good 13 ct now into 2C and not worry if we can't break relay.

I like that this structure gets rid of the WJS hands. A negative for what we do is we can't show a GI hand with a minor unless partner takes a rebid after 1N, but it's also nice that these hands can change direction. Like if I have xx xxx Ax AKxxxx I can respond 1N and raise a spade rebid, etc.

I think, too, that we're making more use of our 2L responses than 2/1 GF.

[wclass___]

I see you have discarded 1N GF relay, i think it is a good decision.

I have stated this before and i am still sure that it is better to add 5431 5440 hands to 2♠ and make 2♥ as promising 2-3.

--Your 2♥ can contain very different hands. It could be 5431 11 counts as well as 5422 14 counts. Responder is never sure if we are in misfit or partner has 2♥, which is clearly not that bad. (Your current structure concentrates on distinguishing between 5/6♠+ hands, while i believe it is more important to distinguish between 1/2♥.) With 6♠2♥ decision should be involved, but generally weaker hands tends towards 2♠, stronger hands - to 2♥.

Smaller disadvantages.

-Have to bid at 3rd level with minimal hands with 3♥.
-Responder will always bid 2♠ with 5♥2♠.

Good luck.

[straube]

wclass___, on 2012-January-20, 13:04, said:

I see you have discarded 1N GF relay, i think it is a good decision.

I have stated this before and i am still sure that it is better to add 5431 5440 hands to 2♠ and make 2♥ as promising 2-3.

--Your 2♥ can contain very different hands. It could be 5431 11 counts as well as 5422 14 counts. Responder is never sure if we are in misfit or partner has 2♥, which is clearly not that bad. (Your current structure concentrates on distinguishing between 5/6♠+ hands, while i believe it is more important to distinguish between 1/2♥.) With 6♠2♥ decision should be involved, but generally weaker hands tends towards 2♠, stronger hands - to 2♥.

Smaller disadvantages.

-Have to bid at 3rd level with minimal hands with 3♥.
-Responder will always bid 2♠ with 5♥2♠.

Good luck.

I don't think it's right to move past 2H with short hearts unless we have someplace better to offer. Responder is only going to pass 2H when he has a weak hand with six hearts. I'd rather chance a 6-0 than a 5-0.

[wclass___]

straube, on 2012-January-20, 14:17, said:

Responder is only going to pass 2H when he has a weak hand with six hearts. I'd rather chance a 6-0 than a 5-0.

What do you do with 5♥0-1♠... bid 2♠? Play 5-1 5-0 ♠instead of 5-2♥?

From your comment above it is clear to me that you never pass with 5♥ because you said that he ''is going to pass only if''. Also you used 5-0 argument in your favor.

Just wonder if you bid 2♠ or 3m with 5♥0-1♠ and how it works?

[awm]

Presumably he responds 1nt to the opening if he has five hearts and less than invite. This might miss a 5-3 fit if opener is 53(32) and it goes 1s-1n-pass but there are other times 1nt is best, and if it goes 1s-1n-2m-2h partner will know hearts are just five long and remove with 0-1h.

[straube]

awm, on 2012-January-20, 17:07, said:

Presumably he responds 1nt to the opening if he has five hearts and less than invite. This might miss a 5-3 fit if opener is 53(32) and it goes 1s-1n-pass but there are other times 1nt is best, and if it goes 1s-1n-2m-2h partner will know hearts are just five long and remove with 0-1h.

Hadn't even thought of that, but that's a really nice plus to playing this way.

I've looked at just a few hands, but I'm noticing a significantly higher use of 2C, 2D, and 2H compared to 2/1 GF. Also, so many of our auctions go 1S-4S now that we would otherwise use 2/1s significantly less than standard systems.

[Fluffy]

We are playing some gadget with crossed strenght ranges:

1♠-2♥ is a good 2♠ raise (8-10 normally) or exactly invitational strenght in hearts (Seldom happens). Partner then bids 2♠ normally unless he has an interesting hand to play game opposite a good raise in spades.

1♠-2♦ is a weak hand with hearts , or a 10-12 raise in spades, again aprtner tends to bid 2♥ here unless he has heart support.

GF hands just go through GF relay.

This is probably so ilegal for you, I supose if I ever play this in USA I might go to jail or something

[olien]

awm, on 2012-January-20, 12:18, said:

Is it legal: on the mid-chart it should be....

Do you mean the 1♠-2♦ bid? or the 1M-2♣ bid? I don't think the latter is legal on the ACBL mid-chart (which the OP is wanting to play as INV+ relay), then I believe you're incorrect.

I referred to the ACBL Mid-Chart, item #2 which states:
"2. Relay (tell me more) systems that promise game-forcing values."
are allowed.

Not sure about 1♠-2♦ though; there's no specific reference to it, however the chart conspicuously states:
"**unless specifically listed below, and (for 6-20) on the ACBL
Defense Database site, methods are disallowed**"

and #7 on the general convention chart (which I believe this section would apply to the mid-chart, but I'm unsure, just trying to be helpful hints at 1S-2♦ NOT being legal. It states (under allowed):

"7. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP),
forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher. (For this
classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a
range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five cards – See #7 under
DISALLOWED.)"

Hope this helps out with answering legality questions.

[awm]

The mid-chart states under allowed:

3. All other constructive rebids and responses are permitted

So any response scheme to your opening bids that promises constructive values is fine. This includes 2♦ showing 6+♥ constructive or 5+♥ invitational. It also includes 2♣ artificial invitational or better. There is an exception for "relay systems that are not game forcing" (which are not allowed) but 2♣ in this method is not technically a relay (it gives substantial information about responder's hand, it is not the cheapest call, it does not force opener to make any particular call). There is also no suggestion that a non-game-forcing sequence of relays will ever occur in this method.

[olien]

awm, on 2012-January-21, 00:46, said:

The mid-chart states under allowed:

3. All other constructive rebids and responses are permitted

So any response scheme to your opening bids that promises constructive values is fine. This includes 2♦ showing 6+♥ constructive or 5+♥ invitational. It also includes 2♣ artificial invitational or better. There is an exception for "relay systems that are not game forcing" (which are not allowed) but 2♣ in this method is not technically a relay (it gives substantial information about responder's hand, it is not the cheapest call, it does not force opener to make any particular call). There is also no suggestion that a non-game-forcing sequence of relays will ever occur in this method.

I guess I'm more conservative in my interpretation. No hard feelings.

[straube]

I agree with Adam. The first bid is constructive. We might be able to relay once after that (because we are arguing that the first bid is not a relay) but not twice or it would be a sequence of relays. OTOH, I think responder will always decline to relay if he has an invitational only hand.

[straube]

Fluffy, on 2012-January-21, 00:04, said:

We are playing some gadget with crossed strenght ranges:

1♠-2♥ is a good 2♠ raise (8-10 normally) or exactly invitational strenght in hearts (Seldom happens). Partner then bids 2♠ normally unless he has an interesting hand to play game opposite a good raise in spades.

1♠-2♦ is a weak hand with hearts , or a 10-12 raise in spades, again aprtner tends to bid 2♥ here unless he has heart support.

GF hands just go through GF relay.

This is probably so ilegal for you, I supose if I ever play this in USA I might go to jail or something

Why are you playing this way?

[awm]

olien, on 2012-January-21, 01:01, said:

I guess I'm more conservative in my interpretation. No hard feelings.

No problem. It's very annoying how difficult to parse these ACBL regulations are. The "no relay systems" one is perhaps the most confusing. I've complained about this before, but the response I usually get is that it's completely clear... and then proceed to contradict themselves in a single email (like "the rules for legal openings in 1st seat and 3rd seat are the same" but "this hand would be legal to open in 3rd but not 1st"... or "obviously precision 2♣ is allowed on the general chart because it shows clubs" but "obviously 2♥ showing hearts and a minor is not allowed on the general chart"). At some point I was playing against what I thought was a non-game-forcing relay system in a general-chart event. I pointed this out to the director. He agreed with me, went to the table, the opponents said only "it's not a relay system" and then the director agreed with them (without any further discussion).

[straube]

Broadening even more to look at both our 1M opening response structures. Criticism welcome.

1H-
.....1S-natural, tends to deny hearts unless 5+ spades and GF
.....1N-semiforcing
..........2C-four clubs
...............2D-six diamonds
...............2S-GI clubs
...............3C-to play
...............3D-GI diamonds
..........2D-four diamonds
...............2S-GI diamonds
...............3C-GI clubs
...............3D-to play
..........2H-six hearts or 45(31) max (a 4522 max opens 1N)
...............2S-GI hearts, 2 hearts
.....2C-artificial, 13+, subsequent relay is GF, break is invitational natural
..........2D-bal or 4+ clubs or 5+ diamonds
..........2H-6H
..........2S-4 diamonds
..........2N-5S/6H
..........3C-4S, higher short
.....2D-constructive raise or limit raise with 3 trump
.....2H-less than constructive raise
.....2S-WJS
.....2N-LR+ with 4 trump
.....3C-WJS
.....3D-mixed raise
.....3H-weak raise
.....3S-WJS
.....3N-spade splinter
.....4C-diamond splinter
.....4D-club splinter
.....4M-to play


1S-
.....1N-semiforcing
..........2C-four clubs
...............2D-six diamonds
...............2H-1552, less than GI
...............3C-GI
...............3D-GI
..........2D-four diamonds
...............2H-1525, less than GI
...............3C-GI
...............3D-GI
..........2H-four hearts
...............3m-GI
.....2C-artificial, 13+, as for 1H
.....2D-five+ hearts, GI or light GF OR six+ hearts, 5+ hcps
..........2H-other
..........2S-six spades, 0-2 hearts
..........2N-6S/5m, medium+
..........3C-5S/6C, medium+
..........3D-5S/6D, medium+
..........3H-invitational
..........3S-six+ spades, highly invitational
..........3N?
..........4m-4+ trump, max, shortness, other minor
.....2H-usually 3 spades, constructive or limit
.....2S-less than constructive raise
.....2N-4+ spades, limit raise+
.....3m-weak jump shift
.....3H-mixed raise
.....3S-weak raise
.....3N-splinter, heart shortness
.....4C-splinter, diamond shortness
.....4D-splinter, club shortness
.....4M-to play

[awm]

A couple comments:

(1) I'm not convinced that your rebids over 1M-2♣ are really ordered properly. The concern is that when partner has an invitational hand, the suit he is least likely to fit is the other major. This is because he might bid 1♥-1♠ or 1♠-2♦ on at least some hands with length in that suit. By having the other major resolve highest (1M-2♣-2N+) you are basically hanging partner when he has an invite with no major fit. Further, 5/5 majors and similar hands are one of the most appealing to open on light values! I think better is to have the major one-suiters resolve higher, because 3M is likely to be a playable spot for the invite and because marginal openers with 6M might tend to open 2M (making the major one-suiter tend to be "sounder" than a 5/5 hand that might have no other option but pass).

(2) I'm still not sure you need all these raises. In particular, you could probably bid 2♣ on a GF raise and bid 2M-1 on a four-card limit raise (planning to bid again if opener signs off). This tends to conceal hands better on some game-only sequences, and also might help you on invites where opener needs help (for example you could play 1M:2M-1:2M:3x as a mini-splinter or concentration of values in a 4-card LR). This would free up 2NT (for example to handle another weak jump type hand either directly, or by swapping for the mixed raise).