[Cyberyeti]

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dealer S, love all, teams

We have no problems with this, and neither would a strong club, but I'm curious how the American systems cope with this sort of hand.

Our auction:

1♣(4+♣)-2♣(Inverted F3♣, not denying 4M)
2♦(artificial ask)-2♠
4♦(kickback)-5♣(2+Q, inconceivable partner doesn't have 5+♣ to bid like this)
7♣(can count 13 as partner has at least 5 clubs to show the Q)

[Zelandakh]

1C - 1S
2D - 3C
4D - 5C (4D Kickback)
7C
seems reasonable. Of course many will open the South hand 2C but I think this is also manageable

2C - 2D
3C - 4C
4D - 5C (4D Kickback)
7C
for example.

My auction is:-
1C = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1H = 4+ spades, GF
1S = relay
... - 2H = 4 spades, 5+ clubs
2S = relay
... - 2N = 5 clubs
3C = relay
... - 3H = 4225
4D = RKCB for clubs
... - 4N = 2 or 5 without CQ
5S = spade ask
... - 6C = denies SK or SQ
7C

[Fluffy]

I don´t have the methods to find partner has 9 black cards on natural methods after the reverse, will have to have faith on third round heart control.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2011-December-19, 07:10, said:

I don´t have the methods to find partner has 9 black cards on natural methods after the reverse, will have to have faith on third round heart control.

I think from Zel's examples and my auction, the key is to use kickback, as if you play normal keycard, you're stuffed by say AQxx, xx, xxx, xxxx. I was wondering why so many people missed the grand in the game in which I was playing.

You find out about the 9th black card by the strong hand using KB and the weak hand showing a Q♣ he doesn't have in response due to knowing partner has at least 5.

Every minor 4-5 I've seen posted, the "open 1♦" crew come out the woodwork, but I'd like to see them sort this one out, although I can't see any reason why anybody would open one this strong 1♦. (OK some wiseguy will mutter something about strong diamond, don't bother)

[han]

I think the auction

1C - 1S
2D - 4C
4NT - 5S
7C

is obvious in Standard American methods. In fact I see no reasonable alternatives.

I don't agree with Zelandakh that it is reasonable to bid 3C as responder, it is a poor bid. I don't think that opening 2C with this strength and shape is reasonable either.

[Cyberyeti]

han, on 2011-December-19, 09:29, said:

I think the auction

1C - 1S
2D - 4C
4NT - 5S
7C

is obvious in Standard American methods. In fact I see no reasonable alternatives.

I don't agree with Zelandakh that it is reasonable to bid 3C as responder, it is a poor bid. I don't think that opening 2C with this strength and shape is reasonable either.

What does 4♣ show ? I know from previous posts some people play 2♦ FG, or lebensohl over a reverse, in which case 3♣ doesn't seem unreasonable (if you do play leb, what's the difference between 4♣ and 2N-3♣-4♣ ?).

[han]

4C shows a good hand with 4+ clubs. 3C just shows a GF hand with 3+ clubs, that's quite different. You might bid 3C with something like Axxx xxx Qxx Kxx for example. On the given hand you are lucky that you can show your extreme trump length because opener asks for keycards and has the club queen.

What if opener had x Ax AKQJ KJxxxx? If you bid only 3C and later show 2+queen then partner will worry about Axxx xxx xxx AQx where the grand slam has no play (in fact, partner should expect you to hold only 3 trumps when you have A-AQ and you bid only 3C). If you jump to 4C partner knows you have 4 spades and 4 clubs, so that you will always be able to ruff the heart loser.

[han]

Regarding your other question, I don't play lebensohl here but use 2H as a sign off. However, I do use 2NT as lebensohl after 1C - 1S - 2H. I don't think that you should put many hands in this 2NT, because partner will not always bid 3C and you may not be able to show your hand.

I play that

1C - 1S
2H - 2NT
3C - 4C,

shows an invitational hand, probably with 4 clubs.

1C - 1S
2H - 2NT
3C - 3NT

shows less than a jump to 3NT, which I play as showing 11-12 HCP. I think that these 11-12 counts without a fit (usually 4-3-4-2 since you didn't bid 1D, 2S or raise clubs or hearts) are important hands to show. With more you can afford to jump to 4NT. With 8-10 you probably don't have a slam and you can go through the 2NT..3NT route. Without suitable honors in diamonds and spades you can bid 3D with either strength.

[gnasher]

Han's auction looks pretty sensible to me. 4♣ just shows a game-force with very good club-support.

If you bid only 3♣ (game-forcing) as responder, you should still get there though:
1♣-1♠
2♦-3♣
4♣-4♠
4NT-5♠
7♣

I don't think the choice of ask-asking methods matters on this deal. Responder can't have AQxx xx xxx xxxx, because he would have bid Lebensohl.

Regarding the choice of opening bid, I don't think anyone would open 1♦. The arguments, such as they are, for opening 1♦ with 4-5 apply only if opener is too weak to reverse.

[Cyberyeti]

gnasher, on 2011-December-19, 10:26, said:

Han's auction looks pretty sensible to me. 4♣ just shows a game-force with very good club-support.

If you bid only 3♣ (game-forcing) as responder, you should still get there though:
1♣-1♠
2♦-3♣
4♣-4♠
4NT-5♠
7♣

I don't think the choice of ask-asking methods matters on this deal. Responder can't have AQxx xx xxx xxxx, because he would have bid Lebensohl.

If you're playing Lebensohl in this situation, many people don't at club level, 3♣ is weak and I suspect this also contributed to the grand being missed in the club in which it was played (but doesn't excuse the 3Ns ).

Quote

Regarding the choice of opening bid, I don't think anyone would open 1♦. The arguments, such as they are, for opening 1♦ with 4-5 apply only if opener is too weak to reverse.

Sorry, maybe I should have put some smilies on, I was at least semi joking, it just gets me the (in my view odd or worse) times when some people do open 4-5s 1♦.

[Flameous]

I'd open 1♦ but that's not in a really natural set up. (Unbal ♦, 1♣ doesn't hold 4♦ unless bal)

I'd bid it
1♦ - 1♠
1NT - 3♣ (Transfer, nat inv)
4♦ - 4NT (Kickback)
7♣

After 3♣ I'd count partner to have 5th ♣ or something else useful to provide the 13th trick. Practically only bad hand that is worth an invite is AQJx xxx xx Axxx, I'll gladly take my chances.

[relknes]

How about 4th suit forcing after the reverse?

1♣-1♠
2♦-2♥
2N-3♣

and then the cuebidding starts.