[daveharty]

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Matchpoints. !NT was 15-17. Double was penalty. Opps have no agreements over a penalty double other than "systems on". What now?

[kenrexford]

3♥

[aguahombre]

kenrexford, on 2011-December-09, 12:21, said:

3♥

What fun. We get to use a penalty double and Michaels in the same auction. (Not a criticism, just an observation.) I think I would vote for 4C Leaping Mike, though.

[whereagles]

Indeed. You might not get to see anything funnier this night, so you might as well take advantage.

3H

[neilkaz]

3♥ now which should really show PD that I have a monster.

[wyman]

After pen X, I think X of 2H should be penalty as well. I'd bid 3H at the table (and voted as such), but if I thought P and I would be on the same wavelength about 4C leaping michaels, that would be great.

[mikeh]

I bid 4♠.

Think about where you will play this hand.

Surely no-one will play clubs? 4♠ rates to have a decent play opposite a stiff spade, while 5♣ rates to fail opposite even 5 card support.

The cute 3♥ bid doesn't help us at all, and may end up helping the defence.

Even the cuter 4♣ leaping Michaels, if it meant that, is a waste of breath. Is anyone happy if partner passes or raises clubs? Really?

Any call other than 4♠ is not playing bridge.

[kenrexford]

mikeh, on 2011-December-09, 15:25, said:

I bid 4♠.

Think about where you will play this hand.

Surely no-one will play clubs? 4♠ rates to have a decent play opposite a stiff spade, while 5♣ rates to fail opposite even 5 card support.

The cute 3♥ bid doesn't help us at all, and may end up helping the defence.

Even the cuter 4♣ leaping Michaels, if it meant that, is a waste of breath. Is anyone happy if partner passes or raises clubs? Really?

Any call other than 4♠ is not playing bridge.

Strong words. But, just because you are going to insist on spades does not mean that you have to bid 4♠. You can, for instance, bid 3♥ and then, if partner bids 3NT to ask for the minor, bid 4♠. That says, "self-playing spades with a minor" and describes the hand perfectly.

Where a 3♥ cue helps is when Opener has a third-seat nonsense 1NT opening (psychic). This is not impossible.

[mikeh]

kenrexford, on 2011-December-09, 16:12, said:

Strong words. But, just because you are going to insist on spades does not mean that you have to bid 4♠. You can, for instance, bid 3♥ and then, if partner bids 3NT to ask for the minor, bid 4♠. That says, "self-playing spades with a minor" and describes the hand perfectly.

Where a 3♥ cue helps is when Opener has a third-seat nonsense 1NT opening (psychic). This is not impossible.

I hadn't thought of the psyche, if only because I have never encountered a red v white 1N psyche, and doubt that I ever will. It is just so disaster-prone, and responder should almost never be able to read it.

If you play opps who are prone to this red v white psyche, then I agree that 3♥ does a better job of exposing it than does my 4♠. I mean no disrespect when I suggest that this isn't worth catering to unless one can do so risk-free.

Here, we bid 3♥ and what, exactly, are we expecting from partner? Even if rho has psyched, we don't necessarily have a slam. Nor can we expect partner to realize that xx xxx Axxx Jxxx is what we are looking for....so I don't understand how 3♥ then 4♠ advances our cause.

In the meantime, by suggesting that we are interested in clubs as well as spades, we create a problem for partner. He may reason that our spades cannot be self-sufficient, since we didn't insist on spades....he may feel he has a right to pull to clubs with say xx in spades and club length. Ugh.

Were we red and them white, I would agree with your course of action, since we may now have a real interest in revealing the psyche. Otherwise, I remain of the view that 4♠ is the bridge bid and that anything else may be sexier but is less practical.

[kenrexford]

mikeh, on 2011-December-09, 16:37, said:

I hadn't thought of the psyche, if only because I have never encountered a red v white 1N psyche, and doubt that I ever will. It is just so disaster-prone, and responder should almost never be able to read it.

If you play opps who are prone to this red v white psyche, then I agree that 3♥ does a better job of exposing it than does my 4♠. I mean no disrespect when I suggest that this isn't worth catering to unless one can do so risk-free.

Here, we bid 3♥ and what, exactly, are we expecting from partner? Even if rho has psyched, we don't necessarily have a slam. Nor can we expect partner to realize that xx xxx Axxx Jxxx is what we are looking for....so I don't understand how 3♥ then 4♠ advances our cause.

In the meantime, by suggesting that we are interested in clubs as well as spades, we create a problem for partner. He may reason that our spades cannot be self-sufficient, since we didn't insist on spades....he may feel he has a right to pull to clubs with say xx in spades and club length. Ugh.

Were we red and them white, I would agree with your course of action, since we may now have a real interest in revealing the psyche. Otherwise, I remain of the view that 4♠ is the bridge bid and that anything else may be sexier but is less practical.

I mean, the vul is one argument, as you mention. On the other hand, I once had Junior Cappelletti psyche a third-seat TWO notrump red on white in a KO against me.

[Zelandakh]

Out of interest Mike, do you play pass as forcing in this auction? or take-out? If neither, how about the same auction with 2m instead of 2H? I agree with 4S I think - if LHO has talked us out of slam with a psyche then just congratulate them and note it away for the next time.

[FrancesHinden]

I don't see why 3H should be Michaels here. If I had started the auction this way, then for me 3H asks partner to bid 3NT with a heart stop - it's likely to have a long running minor suit and a good hand. I agree with mike's choice of 4S for lack of anything obviously better.

[Free]

Agree with Frances, 3♥ doesn't sound as Michaels.

Btw, what would 4♣ mean here? Could this be considered Leaping Michaels (if you play that in other situations)?

[aguahombre]

Of course, Frances is correct, as are those who pointed out Leaping Michaels is not possible after the double, either.

I reallly would keep my day job, if I had one Stand-up routines would not be sucessful. We had to live with the OP double being natural and don't know what the OP two-suiter bids were.

If the structure we used allowed that hand a chance to make a second call with these extra values (such as CHASM) then we would have done that, initially. If, not..then after having doubled, 4S is the only practical choice.

[daveharty]

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Unfortunately, my partner, who was West, either forgot our meta-agreement that after a penalty double, all subsequent doubles are for penalty; or else he thought it didn't apply here. Obviously 2HX wasn't the best spot for us.

[mikeh]

daveharty, on 2011-December-12, 12:19, said:

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Unfortunately, my partner, who was West, either forgot our meta-agreement that after a penalty double, all subsequent doubles are for penalty; or else he thought it didn't apply here. Obviously 2HX wasn't the best spot for us.

Double is silly anyway, imo. When you know where you want to play, bid it. I have still not read any sensible reason for doing anything other than 4♠. Sure, if partner has 5 or 6 hearts, we might do as well or better by defending, but that is a tiny, tiny target. In the meantime, if partner read the double as takeout, aren't we going to bid 4♠ 'to play' at some point anyway? If so, then why take a route that should suggest some doubt to partner.

Anytime you have a choice between placing the contract on the one hand and, on the other, making generic forcing bids before placing the contract, the slow way suggests doubt about the contract, while the direct way is a strong positive statement that this is the right spot.

[whereagles]

The only reason I see not to bid 4S is like a diamond lead and force with spades Axxx/xx. Not really the most likely scenario, but a possible one.

I think 3H might dodge that bullet, but then again, it may lead to missing games that you could have bid and made.