[Antrax]

Matchpoints, NS vul

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Our auction:

Spoiler

2♣-2♦, 3♦-4♦ (agreeing diamonds, slam interest), 4♥(cue)-4NT (thinking 4♠ might stick partner if he has a void), 5♠-6♦ (oops, never dreamed a 2c opener would have so few keycards)

How could this have been avoided? Do we need a better ace ask for minor-suit slams, better judgment for slam bidding (heart cue a bad sign when I hold the ace?), better judgment of 2♣ openers and/or better methods over 2♣?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would open 1D, but 2C is ok - you will have trouble in finding a rebid, I would go with
3D, but this is an underbid.
If you decide to open 1D, you should have a clear opinion, what to do in the net round,
if p mentiontes a major, e.g. hearts.

1D - 2C (1)
3D (2) - 3NT (3)
4NT(4) - Pass

(1) SAYC style
(2) we got lucky
(3) stoppers in the major, and the hand is a min
(4) the hand is worth another try, the alternative is 4D,
but after a 4D bid, it may not be possible for you to play NT

Regarding your auction - the auction is fine, until 4NT, the weaker hand
should avoid making the ace asking bid.
If your asce asking bid in minor suit auctions is 4NT, a 4S bid in this seq.
usually implies also, that the 4S bidder is possesing only 1 KC, since he will
be dead after a 2KC response.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mb_dunedin]

I agree with P-Marlowe that the 4NT bid was bad. Don't do it if the "2-with/without" responses push you too high. I think in the beginner/intermediate forum we'll skip the discussion on alternative ace-asks to 4NT, but you can see why experts do find some other route.

As you say, the 4NT bidder here could reasonably expect to hear at least three key-cards in response, which suggests the 2C bid was the one which got you into bother. I'd certainly open this 1D - downgrade for the Q singleton and KQ doubleton, it's a hand which I'd plan to show by opening 1D and rebidding 3NT. If partner passes, then it's very unlikely we've missed a game. I am of course crossing my fingers that partner has a club stop, or it isn't led. If the suit were a major, then I'd agree with a 2C opening, but you need extra stength to open 2C when holding a long minor.

As P_Marlowe says, when parter replies 2C, you get lucky and can make a forcing 3D rebid instead.

[Fluffy]

You did ok, but East has an obvious 4♠ over 4♥. You can't bid 4NT when you can't handle a response as already mentioned twice, also in general weak hands shouldn't take control, althou here weak hand is the one with the most unshown extras so perhaps its ok.

Note that one of the problems of the hand is the missfit in clubs that make ♣K useless. This can be discovered if your methods let East show clubs.

[Antrax]

I was East, I thought W not keycarding means he wants me to keycard because he has a void.

[Fluffy]

This makes no sense at all, if he has a void he doesn't want you to keycard!

Cuebids mean that he wants you to cuebid, because he either misses contorl in a suit, or because 4NT won't help him.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2011-September-26, 03:37, said:

This makes no sense at all, if he has a void he doesn't want you to keycard!

Cuebids mean that he wants you to cuebid, because he either misses contorl in a suit, or because 4NT won't help him.

What Fluffy said and ...

Part of the problem here is that using 4N as Blackwood for minor suit slams is very unhelpful, the most likely problem is that two aces doesn't guarantee a slam but takes you past 5♦. ♠xxx or Qxx is quite likely.

Suggestion:

use 4♥ as keycard in this auction if you don't use minorwood (and 4N as a heart cue).

We would bid 1♦-2♣-2N (GF not necessarily balanced)-3♣-3♦-4♦-4♥(keycard)-4N (1 or 4)-P or 5♦

[the_dude]

I don't like the 2♣ opener absent more advanced RKC agreements. You can plainly see that you will need A-A-K from partner to bid a slam - meaning that RKC is going to be critical. 2C - 2D - 3D chews up so much bidding space that you are going to be struggling quickly after partner's second bid.

[Antrax]

I've heard of kickback and of minorwood. We currently don't play either. What's the 4♥-as-RKCB one? Does it also apply for auctions where clubs are agreed as the trump suit?

[neilkaz]

Noting that your were East and this is BI so I should be nice, but your PD's 2♣ opening is absolutely terrible in a S/A system. He has only 19 HCP and one likely worthless stiff Q and another dubious one. This is only and 8 trick hand and not even an 8.5 trick hand. Where is the 9th trick needed for 2♣? In fact to open 2♣ in a minor, it is good to have a bit more than a bare min 9 trick hand since the 3m rebid is forcing in S/A and takes up lots of room. Additionally opener's hand is short on key cards and the dub KQ can be a downgrade.

However, after 4♥ just cooperate and cue 4♠ and let PD RKCB and then you stop in 5♦. PD cue bid for a reason and perhaps he is looking for a ♠ control and usually it is best to let the strong hand RCKB. However I do understand that you rightly felt he had a stronger hand and really all you need to place the contract is key cards + Q♦. However, East could have 8 or 9 ♦ and you could still be off two aces

Blame 95% to East for opening 2♣ at least a trick short and 5% to West as I slightly prefer 4♠ to 4NT

EDIT: I forgot to mention that this hand seems ideal to open 1♦ and rebid 3♦

[VM1973]

In my opinion the hand is not a 2♣ opener. As I've said in other threads (and gotten flak for) I wouldn't open strong unless the hand has more quick tricks than losers. With 4½ losers and 3 QTs this hand is far too weak for that action.

[kenrexford]

A couple of points already made are good ones, especially about this hand not being good enough to open 2♣.

The one key, though, that I noticed is that people seem to lack understanding of when to go low with weaker "super strong" hands.

If you open 2♣ with that hand and partner eventually bids 4♦, bid 5♦. You have a dead minimum with poor controls. Suggest a pass! If partner has two Aces, he can bid the slam anyway.

In other words, don't bid your hand several times. 2♣...3♦ shows about a 4-loser hand, or better. You have to be REALLY AGGRESSIVE AND OPTOMISTIC to view this as a 9-winner hand, but you did. When partner bids 4♦, bidding 5♦ says that you have a LOUSY 9-winner hand, which is what you have. If he has three tricks, he can hope to make six and blast it himself.

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2011-September-26, 10:09, said:

I've heard of kickback and of minorwood. We currently don't play either. What's the 4♥-as-RKCB one? Does it also apply for auctions where clubs are agreed as the trump suit?

Minorwood is where you bid 4 of your agreed minor asking for aces.

Kickback is the suit above your agreed suit asking.

[nigel_k]

I second what Ken said. It's not a 2♣ opening but, having opened 2♣, West should definitely bid 5♦ over 4♦. Slam needs quite a lot and partner will bid it himself when it is making (and sometimes when it isn't).

I actually don't mind 4NT since slam seems certain and East wants to investigate grand.

[blackshoe]

Antrax, on 2011-September-26, 10:09, said:

I've heard of kickback and of minorwood. We currently don't play either. What's the 4♥-as-RKCB one? Does it also apply for auctions where clubs are agreed as the trump suit?

If the denomination above the agreed trump suit at the four level (for all four possible trump suits) is RKCB, that's Kickback.
If a bid of the agreed minor trump suit at the four level is RKCB, that's Minorwood.
If the denomination above the agreed minor suit at the four level (i.e., 4♦ when clubs are trumps, 4♥ when diamonds are trumps) is RKCB but 4♠ (when hearts are trumps) is not RKCB, that's Redwood.

[Zelandakh]

There's a 4th system, unbid major. Here the lowest unbid major is RKCB for the agreed minor suit. To the OP, I would not worry too much about these alternatives. Just use 4NT for now as it is simpler with a pick-up partner and work on your bidding fundamentals and judgement; this will pay you dividends later over using a conventional fix.

[Antrax]

Thanks, though this is my regular partnership :-)

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2011-September-27, 06:21, said:

There's a 4th system, unbid major. Here the lowest unbid major is RKCB for the agreed minor suit.

That's my choice, most of the time.

[pooltuna]

Only by East if they are playing Precision

[ArtK78]

Truly dislike the 2♣ opening (and I am being charitable with the term "dislike").

East has a right to expect that there is a slam opposite a 2♣ opening. Not only does he have 11 HCP, but he has an ace. While not all bidding is a matter of counting HCP, East has to move towards slam.

As has been said by several posters, once you open a dead minimum 2♣ (or, in this case, subminimum), bid conservatively thereafter. Partner knows what you must have at a minimum, and he will not drop the bidding if there is a slam. Unfortunately here, he might not drop the bidding even when there is not a slam.

Reminds me of a recent hand in an ACBL matchpoint tourney on BBO. I was in 3rd seat with a 16 HCP strong NT opening. My partner opened 2♣ in first seat! I thought he might have a strong distributional hand so I started slowly with a 2♦ waiting call. He rebid 2NT (22-24)! I ended the auction with 7NT. It was a 39 HCP grand. We only had 15 top tricks. Amazingly enough, this scored considerably above average.