[Phil]

In a new partnership, we've had some disagreement about what certain low-level doubles mean. I'll post each auction, and thanks in advance for the input.

Here's the 1st:

1♦ - (2♣) - pass - (3♣);
pass - pass - x

[Hanoi5]

I say penalty. I thought 2-way looked nice but it might lead to terrible results when they supported each other.

[Fluffy]

I think this is obviously penalty. Perhaps the percentage of appearing is ver low, but if the opponents know its not on your arsenal it will raise

[Free]

Since 1♦-2♣-Dbl proved to contain multiple hand types, the only one left which could have a reason to Dbl now is penalty.

[BunnyGo]

agree with all of the above. In particular Free's reason.

[mikeh]

If we can't afford to compete at the 2-level, how on earth can we afford to start competing at the 3-level...playing double as takeout suggests a serious issue with our 2-level structure. Meanwhile, a penalty of clubs may be rare, but it can't be handled any other way.

[andy_h]

Definitely penalty, but I guess 2-way is possible although I'm not sure what kind of hand I would make a delayed t/o double with that couldn't X or bid 2D/3D on the previous round...maybe a 5530 with a 1 count. Also, a delayed 3D bid probably doesn't exist for me since I don't think I can resist not bidding with support on the previous round.

[farrnbach]

Penalty
t/o or "negative" would be direct 1D-2C-X

But I think this is real rare, and only in pairs

[whereagles]

An experienced player knows that 1♦-2♣ is an extremely annoying overcall. Those players sometimes make that overcall with unsuitable hands. Their pards tend to raise despite knowing this because these days you have to support at the slightest excuse.

So in theory there's a "market" for penalty dbls here.

[gwnn]

penalty..

[Cyberyeti]

I don't know which is the more productive use.

Which is the more likely hand to hold ?

A pure penalty double with only 4-5 clubs that is not a good enough hand to bid game unless it's your style to trap pass, that wants to make a penalty double opposite partner's void when partner can't double or bid again.

A hand not good enough to double first time with both majors, 5521 4 count or similar.

I think the second is a much more likely hand to hold, but without agreement it would be the first meaning.

[gwnn]

The question is not just about likelihoods. If we have a penalty double of 3C, we're getting super rich and we have no other palatable action available now.

[Cyberyeti]

gwnn, on 2011-September-13, 12:07, said:

The question is not just about likelihoods. If we have a penalty double of 3C, we're getting super rich and we have no other palatable action available now.

Yeah, but if it's only 0.00001 of the time, I'd rather use the double for the other use.

[gwnn]

Like I said:

gwnn said:

The question is not just about likelihoods.

I didn't say

not gwnn said:

The question is not at all about likelihoods.

[guido]

I think "standard" is penalty double. At least that would be my assumption unless discussed.

In a partnership in which we had the discussed this specific auction, we had agreed that double showed 5H and diamond tolerance and, obviously, not enough to make a positive call over 2C. The theory was that you didn't want to bury the hearts by raising diamonds last round and without spades, a negative double was too risky.

[Rossoneri]

Agree that it should be penalty.

[Gerben42]

If I couldn't bid over 2♣, there are extremely few hands that I would now bid over 3♣. Note that partner couldn't bid again either, and if I have only 3 HCP, who has the rest??? OPPONENTS!

[whereagles]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-September-13, 13:17, said:

Yeah, but if it's only 0.00001 of the time, I'd rather use the double for the other use.

Your opps overbid only 0,00001 of the time?

[Cyberyeti]

whereagles, on 2011-September-14, 03:30, said:

Your opps overbid only 0,00001 of the time?

They overbid regularly, but here they will have at least 5 opposite 3 clubs, so partner has at most 5 clubs and often only 4. To want to make a penalty double seems pretty unlikely on this auction (particularly given the filth we open on), and at some vulnerabilities probability gets close to zero.

As I suggested above, unless you have a specific agreement that it's not penalties, all normal meta-agreements say penalties, what I was suggesting is that it may be more useful to play this one as takeout. Does depend to some extent on your methods. What is opener supposed to do over 3♣ with a 3343 14 if you play strong no trump, or 15 if you play weak ? Is it not possible opposite your 5521 4-5 that both 3♣ and 3M make ? and I reckon this hand type is a lot more frequent than the rock crushing penalty double.

[kgr]

Takeout.
5/4=3=1 and around 6 HCP
(We play that all low-level DBL's are takeout if opps have a fit)