[vianu2]

I was kibitzing an experienced pair . In that board i was not convinced that the 2D opening was useful for their contract. I do think that may not be very often (except opponents have more points than your pair ).
But vulnerable against not this opening seems strange for me. Any other opinions?

---

How do u bid 6 - which 6? (prefer 2/1 system) if S passes? You need to know the J H or xx spade etc etc. I see 7 is on but seems not a good one.

[Cyberyeti]

We bid 1♦-1♥-2♣-2♠-3♦-5♣(exclusion)-5♦-5♥(Q?)-6♣(yes+A♣)-6♦

Not the right slam, but 6♥ (which is excellent) is difficult for us to get to.

[Zelandakh]

Was the pair in question playing a form of Fantunes? If so, then the 1 level openings are forcing and you need to throw these minimum openers up to the 2 level. There is also some good theory as to why this style of opener might be better than standard weak 2s. Another alternative here is to play stronger weak 2s in the majors and use a multi 2D for weak weak 2s.

As for the hand in question, in the auction given I find the 2H bid a little strange - why not 2S? I think my bidding would be:-

1D = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1H = INV+ relay
1S = min, <4 spades unless 4441 or 4450
... - 1N = GF relay
2C = 4+ clubs
... - 2D = relay
2H = 5+ diamonds, 4 clubs, no 4 major
... - 2S = relay
2N = 5 diamonds
... - 3C = relay
3H = 2254
... - 3S = relay
4C = 3 controls
... - 4D = relay
4H = no diamond control
... - 4N = Q ask
5C = no CQ
... - 5D = DQ? (non-forcing, sets diamonds)
5H = yes, but no HQ
... - 5S = SQ?
5N = no, sorry
... - 6D

Like Yeti's auction, 6H is not where I would end up (not without cheating anyway). It is easier to check for the SQ than the HJ anyway.

[Free]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-16, 02:31, said:

We bid 1♦-1♥-2♣-2♠-3♦-5♣(exclusion)-5♦-5♥(Q?)-6♣(yes+A♣)-6♦

Not the right slam, but 6♥ (which is excellent) is difficult for us to get to.

Why are you asking for the trump Q if you're already missing a keycard?

[Cyberyeti]

Free, on 2011-August-16, 08:32, said:

Why are you asking for the trump Q if you're already missing a keycard?

Because I'm bidding a slam anyway, but it will be a different one if partner doesn't have it. There are only 14 other points missing if he doesn't have ♦KQ, what can he have that alternative slams don't have play ?

[xxhong]

p p p 2C
p 2D(gf waiting) p 3H(both majors)
p 4N(invitation to 6NT) 5N pick a slam)
p 6H all pass.

vianu2, on 2011-August-16, 01:10, said:

I was kibitzing an experienced pair . In that board i was not convinced that the 2D opening was useful for their contract. I do think that may not be very often (except opponents have more points than your pair ).
But vulnerable against not this opening seems strange for me. Any other opinions?

---

How do u bid 6 - which 6? (prefer 2/1 system) if S passes? You need to know the J H or xx spade etc etc. I see 7 is on but seems not a good one.

[vianu2]

xxhong, on 2011-August-16, 09:39, said:

p p p 2C
p 2D(gf waiting) p 3H(both majors)
p 4N(invitation to 6NT) 5N pick a slam)
p 6H all pass.

Hey this is something i could agree with..just because i love simplicity.
So if we have in system 2CL-3H showing both majors minimum 5-5 then we could manage much better.
But NO 4nt ... why?
4CL cue then 4D and then South can ask keys with 4NT ( 6 keys ; 4 aces and both majors kings).
N will answer 5 keys with 5H now S need to ask for a Q (i suppose 5SP for Q heart and 5NT for Q spade).
Probably if he asks 5SP he will know that Q spade missing then he will bid 6H.
Now 6H is safe (once S is asking keys and not N). And if N will answer both queens then he can bid 7H.
I think we can ask for K diamond too , if we want to play a grand. But at least we are in 6H.
Thanks xxhong .
I think we can bid the slam if S will take the control.
I do like the other auctions too but...
1) I do not like to open vulnerable 1D so weak (playing 2/1)
2) too complicate for me to keep in mind so many relays .

[ArtK78]

The 2♦ opening was systemic. If you click on the bidding diagram, it says nonforcing, 9-13 HCP with 5 or 6 diamonds. So this pair did not have any choice as to what opening bid to make.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2011-August-16, 10:26, said:

The 2♦ opening was systemic. If you click on the bidding diagram, it says nonforcing, 9-13 HCP with 5 or 6 diamonds. So this pair did not have any choice as to what opening bid to make.

They certainly had a choice whether to use the toy with this particular hand pattern and honor disbursement. When no bid is appropriate, some people make no bid.

[ArtK78]

aguahombre, on 2011-August-16, 10:34, said:

They certainly had a choice whether to use the toy with this particular hand pattern and honor disbursement. When no bid is appropriate, some people make no bid.

Here you have a bid in your arsenal which describes the hand very well. To me, failure to make a bid denies having a hand consistent with the definition of the bid. So, if South passed, North would have the right to assume that his partner did not have a hand consistent with a 2♦ opening. Not a great way to build partnership confidence.

Some might even view pass as a psyche.

[Zelandakh]

On the way to work this morning I got to thinking a little more about this hand at MP scoring (the OP does not mention scoring). In my bidding sequence, after 5NT Responder has Opener's hand as xx/jx/Qjxxx/AKjx where the small j's are any card jack or lower but at least 1 of these jacks is present. Now Responder has available a 6C call which asks for "undisclosed extras" within context. Now if Opener has the HJ, 6H is going to be better than 6D; but if Opener has the CJ only then 6C leads to a no-play 6NT. And if Opener has both minor suit jacks then 6C leads to an anti-percentage but not impossible 6NT. There are 7 possible hands for Opener and of these 4 lead to 6H while only 2 get to the bad 6NT. These odds seem good enough to try for it. Whether I would think of this at the table, of course, is dubious.

Within a Fantunes style a 2D opening from South seems absolutely clear to me. But the OP has not answered about the given pair's system yet so it is hard to really comment on the merits of the opening bid. As for opening 1D, I would not do so playing 2/1 either but it is OK in systems designed around this style (such as Yeti's and mine). I also agree that relay systems are not for everyone. There are plenty on these forums that play more complicated relay systems than mine though.

[Free]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-17, 02:09, said:

Within a Fantunes style a 2D opening from South seems absolutely clear to me.

Fantunes would never open this hand 2♦, 5422's are considered balanced. Either they open 1NT or they pass.

[Zelandakh]

I did not say Fantunes themselves, I said "Fantunes style" which encompasses a wider range of systems and yes, I probably should have added a caveat of "where 2254 may be opened 2D" but I think this is implied. I am reasonably confident that Fantunes would not ordinarily open this hand 1NT.

[Free]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-17, 03:42, said:

I did not say Fantunes themselves, I said "Fantunes style" which encompasses a wider range of systems and yes, I probably should have added a caveat of "where 2254 may be opened 2D" but I think this is implied. I am reasonably confident that Fantunes would not ordinarily open this hand 1NT.

I know what you said. However, opening unbalanced hands at 2-level AND considering 5422 (not 5-4M) balanced are 2 key concepts of "Fantunes style".

I agree that Fantunes themselves probably pass this hand in 1st and 2nd seat.

[VM1973]

Well I think South should pass as he doesn't have an opening bid and his hand is far too strong to suggest a sac. Assuming that he opens regardless I don't get the point of the 2♥ call. Unless I can't count you're 5-5 spades and hearts so surely the opening contribution by North to the auction should be 2♠. Surely being an experienced pair they must have some tools in their box to work it out but my auctions are normally pretty crude and would probably go something like:

2♦-2♠-3♣-7♥-??

Seeing as you are packing 44 ZPs and your partner has opened (supposedly 26 ZPs) that means you have 70 combined points, which rates you to be able to take 13.6 tricks.

Edit: Maybe 2♦-2♠-3♣-3♥-3NT-7♥ is better.