[kwic]

Hello,
something is bugging me in the acol system :
It is said to prefer 1H opening instead of 1NT with a balanced hand (I agree with that).
But
it is said that 1NT rebid is 15-17HCP.

So, what is the rebid when auctions are (only 2 players bidding) 1H - 1S - ? when you have a balanced hand and 12-14HCP, as you can't rebid 1NT , can't repeat your 5 cards suit. So it seems that you can never play 1NT.

Maybe you have to open with 1NT when balanced and 12-14H but , what should do your partner if he has ♠1,♥3,♦4, ♣5 for example and 5-6HCP?

Thank you very much.

[jschafer]

kwic, on 2011-August-19, 07:48, said:

something is bugging me in the acol system

The acol system is bugging me.

On a more constructive note, you will either have to open 1NT with 5♥-332 or lie about one of your suits over 1♥-1♠. In your example hand where you opened 1NT with 5♥, you are probably fine because by the looks of it the opponents are making quite a few tricks in ♠s anyway.

[kwic]

jschafer, on 2011-August-19, 08:54, said:

The acol system is bugging me.

On a more constructive note, you will either have to open 1NT with 5♥-332 or lie about one of your suits over 1♥-1♠. In your example hand where you opened 1NT with 5♥, you are probably fine because by the looks of it the opponents are making quite a few tricks in ♠s anyway.

Does it really mean that if you open 1♥ and your partner bids 1♠, you can't play 1NT ?

In my example, 1NT is probably not the correct contrat as you can ruff 2, maybe 3 spades playing 2♥ (well, ok it also means they have 2♠ or 3♠ as a winning contract)

But, ok.

Thank you very much.

[semeai]

This was discussed recently in http://www.bridgebas...n-a-major-suit/
(much of it is about strong no-trumps, but toward the end weak no-trumps and things relevant to both are discussed)

There gwnn posted a link to this post by Frances describing how to deal with the 1NT rebid over 1H-1S being 12-17: http://www.bridgebas...994#entry127994

[newchemist]

Hi.

The "standard" solution in this particular case is to play a 1NT rebid by opener as 12-16, then use an artificial 2C relay to sort out the hand types, i.e. Crowhurst

I think the main problem is not 1H (possibly only 4, bal) - 1S or 1H (possibly only 4, bal) - 1NT

but

1H (possibly only 4- bal) - 2 m,

after which neither a rebid of 2H or 2NT is attractive to show the weak balanced hand type.

[shintaro]

kwic, on 2011-August-19, 07:48, said:

Hello,
something is bugging me in the acol system :
It is said to prefer 1H opening instead of 1NT with a balanced hand (I agree with that).
But
it is said that 1NT rebid is 15-17HCP.

So, what is the rebid when auctions are (only 2 players bidding) 1H - 1S - ? when you have a balanced hand and 12-14HCP, as you can't rebid 1NT , can't repeat your 5 cards suit. So it seems that you can never play 1NT.

Maybe you have to open with 1NT when balanced and 12-14H but , what should do your partner if he has ♠1,♥3,♦4, ♣5 for example and 5-6HCP?

Thank you very much.

mmmm well seeing as how Acol is 4 Card Majors and generally Weak NT (12-14) (even though fylistines are playing Strong NT (15 - 17)

No problem Either way If you are Balanced with a 4 card major and 12 - 14 you open 1NT partner can use stayman if they hold a 4 card major opposite ::: With the hand you put them with 1 3 4 5 and that point count they can use the best bid in the book and PASS

If you are playing Strong NT then you open 1 Major then re-bid NT to show WEAK NT
You can also open 1NT with a Grotty 5 card major ie 1 that is not re-biddable

[fromageGB]

shintaro, on 2011-August-20, 04:16, said:

No problem Either way If you are Balanced with a 4 card major and 12 - 14 you open 1NT partner can use stayman if they hold a 4 card major opposite ::: With the hand you put them with 1 3 4 5 and that point count they can use the best bid in the book and PASS

Or maybe you can't. Partner (in normal acol use) can only use stayman if he is strong enough to invite a game. This means a weaker partner will miss the major fit. If you use stayman with weaker hands then you cannot invite a game if opener is top end. You would have to make a unilateral decision.

Everyone I know that plays acol with weak NT opens the major and uses a wide range 1NT rebid with artificial 2♣ inquiry after it. See threads quoted above. You can do this playing either 4 or 5 card majors.

Correction, some play 1NT rebid is 15+ but I don't know the details of how they handle the weaker hands. I think they normally just forget 4 card majors and open 1NT

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2011-August-20, 06:12

[fromageGB]

newchemist, on 2011-August-20, 02:55, said:

I think the main problem is not 1H (possibly only 4, bal) - 1S or 1H (possibly only 4, bal) - 1NT
but
1H (possibly only 4- bal) - 2 m,
after which neither a rebid of 2H or 2NT is attractive to show the weak balanced hand type.

Yes, this is true, which is why most people I know use a 10+ or 11+ minimum strength for a 2 over 1, which means a 2NT rebid on a 12 count is acceptable, and a 14 count should rebid 3NT. They bid 1NT if they do not have the strength to bid at the 2 level.

Playing 5 card majors you could play that rebidding the major does not guarantee a 6 card suit, but that loses out in definition.

Just accept that acol is not designed to be a system that gets you to the best contracts, but is based on the normal British concept of "why do something the easy or logical way, when you can make life more awkward for yourself?".

[SimonFa]

kwic, on 2011-August-19, 07:48, said:

Hello,
something is bugging me in the acol system :
It is said to prefer 1H opening instead of 1NT with a balanced hand (I agree with that).
But
it is said that 1NT rebid is 15-17HCP.

So, what is the rebid when auctions are (only 2 players bidding) 1H - 1S - ? when you have a balanced hand and 12-14HCP, as you can't rebid 1NT , can't repeat your 5 cards suit. So it seems that you can never play 1NT.

Maybe you have to open with 1NT when balanced and 12-14H but , what should do your partner if he has ♠1,♥3,♦4, ♣5 for example and 5-6HCP?

Thank you very much.

As someone who is having to learn Acol after a year of SAYC I'm not sure that is true, or at least as set in stone as you imply. One (only?) advantage of a weak 1NT is its pre-emptive value. Depending on the points distribution I would usually bid 1NT. If partner has 5 spades he can transfer and we have a minimum of 7, otherwise I'm not interested in the spades.

[Zelandakh]

Standard in Acol is to open 12-14hcp 44(32) hands with 1NT. Some like to play Crowhurst which allows for Opener to make a wide-ranging (12-16) 1NT rebid. This was originally designed so that Opener did not have to open 1NT without a stopper in every suit, a personal bugbear of Mr Crowhurst. It is widely regarded as poor bidding practise in more modern times.

I personally do not think avoiding opening a weak 1NT with this shape is a good idea. Most better pairs do not have a way to bid a natural 2m overcall over a weak NT and so you still have a preemptive effect and you do not compromise later bidding. Most importantly your 1H opening is either unbalanced or 15+ which sometimes allows Responder to better compete than in systems where Opener can have a balanced minimum. If you also choose to open a 4441 with 1D rather than 1H then Opener is promising either extras (15+) or a 5+ card suit, even more helpful in offsetting some of the disadvantages of the 4 card major structure in competition.

[jschafer]

fromageGB, on 2011-August-20, 05:57, said:

Just accept that acol is not designed to be a system that gets you to the best contracts, but is based on the normal British concept of "why do something the easy or logical way, when you can make life more awkward for yourself?".

+1

[semeai]

newchemist, on 2011-August-20, 02:55, said:

I think the main problem is not 1H (possibly only 4, bal) - 1S or 1H (possibly only 4, bal) - 1NT

but

1H (possibly only 4- bal) - 2 m,

after which neither a rebid of 2H or 2NT is attractive to show the weak balanced hand type.

fromageGB, on 2011-August-20, 05:57, said:

Yes, this is true, which is why most people I know use a 10+ or 11+ minimum strength for a 2 over 1, which means a 2NT rebid on a 12 count is acceptable, and a 14 count should rebid 3NT. They bid 1NT if they do not have the strength to bid at the 2 level.

Playing 5 card majors you could play that rebidding the major does not guarantee a 6 card suit, but that loses out in definition.

I don't play ACOL, but wouldn't you just bid 1M-2m;2M on 5 card major balanced 12-14 counts that you decided not to open 1NT, make sure to open 1NT on all 4 card major balanced 12-14 counts, and rebid 2NT with strong balanced hands?

I would think you're already bidding 2M in that sequence on any minimum with a 5 card major that doesn't have a 4 card suit between m and M to bid, so there's no hope of having 2M show 6.

[helene_t]

fromageGB, on 2011-August-20, 05:57, said:

[....] most people I know use a 10+ or 11+ minimum strength for a 2 over 1, which means a 2NT rebid on a 12 count is acceptable, and a 14 count should rebid 3NT. They bid 1NT if they do not have the strength to bid at the 2 level.

This sounds as if they play strong notrump.

Playing weak notrump, opener will pass the 1M-1NT response with 15(16) points so you need to respond at the 2-level with (9)10 points. Traditionally
1M-2m
2NT
was played as 15-16 nonforcing, which would allow responder to respond at the 2-level with 8 points. Today it is normally (at least in Lancaster and Leeds where I have played) played as 15+ forcing. It is not good to have to jump to 3NT with 17 points and a 5-card major as responder may have 3-card support which he can only show if you rebid 2NT.

As for the 5M332-hands with (11)12-14 points I think the best advice to beginners and improving players is always to open 1NT. You can then make an exception for exceptionally strong suits that you are happy to treat as 6-card suits. More advanced players may discuss also opening 1M on some hands that always will have an acceptable rebid, like introducing a good 3-card minor as a second suit, or raising partner with 3-card support, or a wide-ranging 1NT rebid.

[campboy]

This isn't just a problem with weak NT systems. In any natural system you have to accept one of the following.

a) open 1NT when in range even with five hearts: you will sometimes miss a heart fit
b) open 1H with these hands and play a wide-ranging 1NT rebid: this will often give responder a problem
c) open 1H and keep the 1NT rebid range limited: you will have to find another rebid when outside this range and so will not be able to play in 1NT when it is right

Option c) is really not bad since you will often want to raise a 1♠ response anyway with 12-14 and 35(32). Personally I prefer a) unless most of my values are in the suit.