[gorvacofin]

NORTH
♠Ax
♥QTx
♦AJ
♣JT98xx

SOUTH (dealer)
♠KQTxxx
♥Axx
♦K
♣AQx

Hi all. I play a simple, acol-based system and played the above hand with my partner.

The auction went: 1S - 2C - 3S - 4S - end. Can someone please suggest what the correct auction to 6S should be?

Thanks.

[Cascade]

North can cue 4♦

You need the partnership agreement that a new suit is a cue

[gorvacofin]

Thanks for the response. Yes, we did consider that; there was some disagreement about who should be making the slam try. South thought that North should be cue-bidding 4♦ but North felt that 4♦ was an overbid and south should be pushing on over 4♠ because of the double-fit in clubs.

[Zelandakh]

In tradtional Acol North could have 8hcp and xx or bare J in spades for this auction. It is hard to believe the North player really feels they have shown their hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-12, 05:14, said:

In tradtional Acol North could have 8hcp and xx or bare J in spades for this auction. It is hard to believe the North player really feels they have shown their hand.

In more modern acol he'll have a 10 count, VERY few people even in the backwater in which I live take the old 8 point approach.

If you do this, a 2N rebid is FG, and you can extend it to unbalanced hands as we do although this is an unorthodox approach.

That said 6♠ is not nailed on on a heart lead (3-2 trumps or stiff jack, club finesse, heart finesse, need 2 of 3 which I make about 61%), 6♣ is I think better as the spades breaking is not required and you only lose out vs 6♠ to clubs 4-0 onside on a heart lead.

Playing traditional acol, this is very awkward unless you are prepared to play 4♦ as a cue over 3♠ where you have to be prepared to be stuffed if you pick up void, xx, AJ10xx, AKxxxx, the cue is of much more frequent use, but you are in a real hole if you needed the natural bid.

We'd bid 1♠-2♣(10+)-2N(GF not always balanced)-3♣(at least 5 of them)-4♦(asking aces) and on to a club slam, but this doesn't help a traditional Acol pair.

I actually think south is at fault if anybody is, slam is almost cold opposite AJ, xxx, xxx, KJ10xx, and good opposite a jack less, so his hand is really quite good for 3♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4S in the given auction does not even gurantee a 8 card fit, North could have just
a singleton spade.
I am not good at constructing hands, but give him a hand, that does not want to bid
3NT.

But he has a fit, and a top honor in the suit, a card South will really like, he has
controls, and South is unlimited, so he should some live.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cloa513]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-12, 05:42, said:

In more modern acol he'll have a 10 count, VERY few people even in the backwater in which I live take the old 8 point approach.

If you do this, a 2N rebid is FG, and you can extend it to unbalanced hands as we do although this is an unorthodox approach.

That said 6♠ is not nailed on on a heart lead (3-2 trumps or stiff jack, club finesse, heart finesse, need 2 of 3 which I make about 61%), 6♣ is I think better as the spades breaking is not required and you only lose out vs 6♠ to clubs 4-0 onside on a heart lead.

Playing traditional acol, this is very awkward unless you are prepared to play 4♦ as a cue over 3♠ where you have to be prepared to be stuffed if you pick up void, xx, AJ10xx, AKxxxx, the cue is of much more frequent use, but you are in a real hole if you needed the natural bid.

We'd bid 1♠-2♣(10+)-2N(GF not always balanced)-3♣(at least 5 of them)-4♦(asking aces) and on to a club slam, but this doesn't help a traditional Acol pair.

I actually think south is at fault if anybody is, slam is almost cold opposite AJ, xxx, xxx, KJ10xx, and good opposite a jack less, so his hand is really quite good for 3♠.

And the double fit doesn't even matter as the clubs are so poor. Give South more spades and 1 club or less and the king of hearts instead of the king of diamonds and its still slam.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-12, 05:42, said:

In more modern acol he'll have a 10 count, VERY few people even in the backwater in which I live take the old 8 point approach.

I also prefer to play 2/1 as 10+ in Acol but the OP decsribed the system as "simple" and in my experience that tends to mean "traditional" more often than not. Furthermore I play reasonably frequently in the Acol club on BBO and can assure you that the 8+ approach is alive and well and is (subjectively) played by the majority there. Beyond that, there is a world of difference between something like xx/QJx/QJx/Axxxx and the actual hand held.

A few players play 1S - 2C - 3S - 4D as 2-way here, either natural or a cue for spades. I personally think this method is close to unworkable and the cue method described above is best. Note that if you do play a 2/1 in a modern way that it is possible to play 1S - 2C - 2S as forcing. Then the new suit = cue after a 3S rebid is safer since 3S can promise a better suit than it does in traditional Acol. But I suspect this may be moving away from useful discussion for the OP.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-12, 07:39, said:

I also prefer to play 2/1 as 10+ in Acol but the OP decsribed the system as "simple" and in my experience that tends to mean "traditional" more often than not. Furthermore I play reasonably frequently in the Acol club on BBO and can assure you that the 8+ approach is alive and well and is (subjectively) played by the majority there. Beyond that, there is a world of difference between something like xx/QJx/QJx/Axxxx and the actual hand held.

A few players play 1S - 2C - 3S - 4D as 2-way here, either natural or a cue for spades. I personally think this method is close to unworkable and the cue method described above is best. Note that if you do play a 2/1 in a modern way that it is possible to play 1S - 2C - 2S as forcing. Then the new suit = cue after a 3S rebid is safer since 3S can promise a better suit than it does in traditional Acol. But I suspect this may be moving away from useful discussion for the OP.

Yes you can play 2/1 as 10+ F2N, but I don't, 2♠ can be dropped the way I play.

[shintaro]

gorvacofin, on 2011-August-11, 17:29, said:

NORTH
♠Ax
♥QTx
♦AJ
♣JT98xx

SOUTH (dealer)
♠KQTxxx
♥Axx
♦K
♣AQx

Hi all. I play a simple, acol-based system and played the above hand with my partner.

The auction went: 1S - 2C - 3S - 4S - end. Can someone please suggest what the correct auction to 6S should be?

Thanks.

Has the Jump shown 16+ HCP if so you can safely cue bid the ♦A and let partner use Blackwood of whatever variety

However as someone put it is by no means certain especially on a ♥lead

Agree with Z 8+

[Cyberyeti]

Cascade, on 2011-August-11, 18:42, said:

North can cue 4♦

You need the partnership agreement that a new suit is a cue

If you have that agreement, how do you bid void, xx, AJ10xx, AKxxxx over 1♠-2♣-3♠ ?

[Quantumcat]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-12, 15:15, said:

If you have that agreement, how do you bid void, xx, AJ10xx, AKxxxx over 1♠-2♣-3♠ ?

If 2♣ is forcing to at least 2NT (which it is if it is at least 10 HCP), then 2♠ is forcing, and 3♠ is unilaterally setting spades as trumps, even if responder is void. In that case, responder has no need to show his shape and any suit bid is a cue.

[Cyberyeti]

Quantumcat, on 2011-August-14, 23:59, said:

If 2♣ is forcing to at least 2NT (which it is if it is at least 10 HCP), then 2♠ is forcing, and 3♠ is unilaterally setting spades as trumps, even if responder is void. In that case, responder has no need to show his shape and any suit bid is a cue.

Non sequitur, I (and most of the people in my neck of the woods) play 10+ and not F2N, 2♠ can be passed.

This is particularly necessary if you open fairly light as we do.

[P_Marlowe]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-12, 15:15, said:

If you have that agreement, how do you bid void, xx, AJ10xx, AKxxxx over 1♠-2♣-3♠ ?

You cant, simply bid 4C.

We can discuss, what comes up more often the seq., that wants to investigate a slam (with a
hand, that has at least secondary support) or the freak 2-suitor with no fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2011-August-15, 10:04, said:

You cant, simply bid 4C.

We can discuss, what comes up more often the seq., that wants to investigate a slam (with a
hand, that has at least secondary support) or the freak 2-suitor with no fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Oh there is no argument, the cue is more frequent, but it really can leave you nowhere to go, say you have void, xxx, AQJxx, AJ10xx, 1♠-2♦-3♠ if 4♣ is not natural you're in a right hole, or void, Qx, AKJ10x, K65432.

[FrancesHinden]

10+ for a 2/1 is extreme even in modern Acol. Gnasher responded 2H to 1S playing with me on an 8-count on vugraph the other week, it gained us a vulnerable game swing.

It is definitely better to play 1S - 2m - 3S - 4new suit as a cue bid. Yes, you are stuffed when you are 6-5 (or sometimes 5-5) in the minors with a good hand, but you can't have everything.
My partner and I get round this play playing 1S - 2C - 3H as a 3S rebid (and 3S as a forcing club raise) to allow responder to agree spades with 3S or bid a suit naturally, but that's yet another agreement to remember.