[mck4711]

non-vul vs vul, IMP, no agreements with p

K9xx
AK87
x
KQ10x

1D - X - p - 4H
5D - ?

What would be your choice and why?

[vianu2]

That 4♣ doesn't allow me to play 3nt must be an weak hand with 7-8 ♣ but if u have such hand why don't u bid 5♣? No idea.
Instead of pass (which can't be forcing) or double (which can be an option, taking care that opener can't have a 2 losers hand -he opened 1♦!)..i would get nervous and leave the table.

[daveharty]

Did the auction just change? I was about to post a response when I noticed the doubler's partner was bidding HEARTS instead of CLUBS. What gives?

[vianu2]

[vianu2]

With 4♥ bid my life is not easier. If 4♥ is intended as 6,7 ♥ in a weak unbalanced hand (i won't think it can be "i have enough to bid the game") then again pass can't be forcing .
I would bid 5h because i'm afraid i could give the 5d contract leading bad .
If declarer has AQ / X/ 8♦/AX and i take my ♥, in the end ill be squeezed and endplayed. Perhaps 5♦ not makes but i don't care about.

[daveharty]

vianu2, on 2011-July-31, 09:28, said:

With 4♥ bid my life is not easier. If 4♥ is intended as 6,7 ♥ in a weak unbalanced hand (i won't think it can be "i have enough to bid the game") then again pass can't be forcing .
I would bid 5h because i'm afraid i could give the 5d contract leading bad .
If declarer has AQ / X/ 8♦/AX and i take my ♥, in the end ill be squeezed and endplayed. Perhaps 5♦ not makes but i don't care about.

I disagree somewhat with this. 4H should not be, say, 6 or 8 HCP with a six card suit; 3H was available for that kind of hand. I think 4H says "4H is likely to be the best contract opposite a typical takeout double." I would double on the given hand; I have extra values (about an ace more than a minimum takeout double) but no extra distribution. If partner's bid WAS a tactical shot with a very poor distributional hand, the auction is not over; after all, partner knows that I don't have, say, a strong NT hand, and I'm not doubling on a trump stack. This isn't the same situation as a double of an opening preempt, where doubler might have been under pressure with various types of hands.

I think it was a harder problem as I originally read it, with advancer bidding 4C, and opener rebidding 5D. I've never seen that particular auction before, but in my experience when opener does something like that it shows a "flawed" preemptive hand; extreme diamond length, but maybe a little too much in high cards for opening 5D, or maybe a side four card major; after opening 1D, they got a little "buyer's remorse" when the opponents got into the auction, and decided to try and close things out. I'm not sure what parter would have been up to with the 4C bid; I suppose it would be analogous to an auction like (1D)-dbl-(pass)-3M, where advancer has a six-card suit with a little extra distribution but not enough in high cards to force to game, something like 9-11 dummy points; but that seems a dubious tactic with a minor suit when it takes you past 3NT.

[tolvyrj]

Prd has jumped into 4 ♥ to my non-vul T/O dbl so he must have 5+ cards in ♥ and some values maybe a black ace.
On the other hand we r on the 5 level, but thats the way it is; opps dont usually make it easy. With aceless hand and long ♦ opening would probaply have been 5♦ so we have at least two losers in our game, do we have more?
I close my eyes and bid 5 ♥ and do not redouble when its my turn to bid again.

[vianu2]

Well someone kidding here:)
A person bid alone vulnerable 5♦ so he decided to suicide himself against a flat 420? huh! That auction is not allowed with less than 3 losers hand:)
And whatever 4♥ means i just cannot double with 11 cards fit in our hands.
I always lost in the past!

[vianu2]

daveharty, on 2011-July-31, 12:00, said:

4H should not be, say, 6 or 8 HCP with a six card suit; 3H was available for that kind of hand. I think 4H says "4H is likely to be the best contract opposite a typical takeout double."

Wondering what do u bid over 1♦-X-p- with x qj109xxx x xxxx ?

[daveharty]

vianu2, on 2011-July-31, 17:09, said:

Wondering what do u bid over 1♦-X-p- with x qj109xxx x xxxx ?

As I said, if partner's 4H bid was a tactical bid with this sort of hand, the auction isn't over. I would expect him to pull the double, because he knows that I don't have a strong NT type of hand. The double of 1D said "I have a takeout double of diamonds", the double of 5D said "I have more than I promised for my takeout double of 1D." Also, if you DO play that a pass here would be forcing--and maybe that is what the OP was getting at, given the subtitle of the thread--then I have to decide whether I want to encourage him to bid on. I think not, since I don't have any extra distribution and I have excellent defensive values. So, double. Perhaps you play such doubles differently.

I don't understand your comment about being unable to double with "11 cards fit in our hands". Why are you convinced that partner has 7 hearts?

[xxhong]

If you play a double to show forward going value, passable only with good trumps, you can double. Otherwise, it's probably fine to just bid 5H against sane players.

mck4711, on 2011-July-31, 01:47, said:

non-vul vs vul, IMP, no agreements with p

K9xx
AK87
x
KQ10x

1D - X - p - 4H
5D - ?

What would be your choice and why?

[nige1]

IMO 5♥ = 10, P = 8, X = 6. Partner did not cue ♦, so probably has long ♥.

[vianu2]

daveharty, on 2011-July-31, 19:01, said:

As I said, if partner's 4H bid was a tactical bid with this sort of hand, the auction isn't over. I would expect him to pull the double, because he knows that I don't have a strong NT type of hand. The double of 1D said "I have a takeout double of diamonds", the double of 5D said "I have more than I promised for my takeout double of 1D." Also, if you DO play that a pass here would be forcing--and maybe that is what the OP was getting at, given the subtitle of the thread--then I have to decide whether I want to encourage him to bid on. I think not, since I don't have any extra distribution and I have excellent defensive values. So, double. Perhaps you play such doubles differently.

I don't understand your comment about being unable to double with "11 cards fit in our hands". Why are you convinced that partner has 7 hearts?

Because i would not jump with other cards. I hate "tactical" bids having defenses, especially nv-vs v.
5,6 ♥ with 9-10 (+) hcps are available to bid with 2♥ or 2♦. 4 cards♥ and 8-10 hcps i simply bid 1♥.
3♥ may show longest hearts but some entries too.Let's say xx Kjxxxx xx k(q)xx
If 4♥ is a bid showing defenses too, you are completely right.
But then i hear 5♦ vuln-vs nv and i just cannot believe that.

And yes, u have more than u promised with your first X, but not as defensive.
U have more than u promised in offensive! A t/o double must have 2 defenses and this is all u had, when your partner bid 4♥.
Why do i need to show a better offensive hand with X?
I strongly believe that i just cannot set that 5♦! And at imps i dunno intend to check it.
How can i play forcing pass on that auction?!
I could ask u to bid with those hands:
akxx kxx xx axxx ,or kqxx qxx xx axxx or qjxx kxxx xx kjxx
Lets say 4h is "to play" based on some hcps. What do we rebid (over X and 4♥) with the second, 3rd hands?
I don't know, so that's why i don't bid 4h based on anything else than hearts.

[daveharty]

Maybe I'm from Bizarro World. Wouldn't be the first time. But vianu2, your scheme for responding to a takeout double seems strange, not to mention nonstandard. If you are truly bidding only 1H opposite partner's double with Ax/QTxx/xxx/KJxx, you are going to be missing some good games. The way I learned responses to takeout doubles--and a quick Google search of "responding to takeout doubles" suggests that this is standard--a single jump response shows 9-11 (does NOT promise a fifth trump), a double jump shows 6-8 points with a six-card suit, and a jump to game shows 12+ "dummy points". This last point is why I disagree with nige1's assessment; I don't believe partner's failure to cuebid indicates anything in particular beyond the conviction that 4H is the best contract. The way I learned it, a cuebid in response to a takeout double could be a couple of different things: an invitational or better hand with equal length in both majors, interested in finding the best major fit; OR, a game-forcing hand with no clear direction, that wants to find out more information before deciding on a final contract (it might want to leave open the option of 3NT if partner only has three cards in our four card major or something). Rarely, it could also be a single-suited hand interested in slam, but that is pretty remote. Parter doesn't automatically cuebid if he knows what the best contract is likely to be. For example, why should a hand like xx/QJxxxx/Ax/Axx cuebid? Doesn't 4H rate to be the best contract opposite a normal takeout double? Why not bid it and put maximum pressure on the opponents?

I don't get why you think this hand isn't defensive, either. It has 5 controls, which is 1-2 controls more than a minimum takeout double might have. My side kings seem to be sitting well. I'm not sure why you think you can't set 5D. Of course, if your partner's 4H bid is unequivocally a weak bid with extreme distribution, that's one thing, but I disagree with that interpretation (plus, if he has that hand, he will pull your double). His 4H bid put a lot of pressure on opener; why should we assume he has guessed correctly? Maybe he has a hand like AQx/x/KQJTxxxx/x, or Axx/--/AKQxxxx/xxx, or whatever. He doesn't have AQJ/--/AKQxxxxx/Ax where 5D is cold, because he would have opened 2C with that; and if his partner had a couple of those cards he might have found a response over the double.

[Phil]

daveharty, on 2011-July-31, 12:00, said:

I disagree somewhat with this. 4H should not be, say, 6 or 8 HCP with a six card suit; 3H was available for that kind of hand. I think 4H says "4H is likely to be the best contract opposite a typical takeout double." I would double on the given hand; I have extra values (about an ace more than a minimum takeout double) but no extra distribution. If partner's bid WAS a tactical shot with a very poor distributional hand, the auction is not over; after all, partner knows that I don't have, say, a strong NT hand, and I'm not doubling on a trump stack. This isn't the same situation as a double of an opening preempt, where doubler might have been under pressure with various types of hands.

I think it was a harder problem as I originally read it, with advancer bidding 4C, and opener rebidding 5D. I've never seen that particular auction before, but in my experience when opener does something like that it shows a "flawed" preemptive hand; extreme diamond length, but maybe a little too much in high cards for opening 5D, or maybe a side four card major; after opening 1D, they got a little "buyer's remorse" when the opponents got into the auction, and decided to try and close things out. I'm not sure what parter would have been up to with the 4C bid; I suppose it would be analogous to an auction like (1D)-dbl-(pass)-3M, where advancer has a six-card suit with a little extra distribution but not enough in high cards to force to game, something like 9-11 dummy points; but that seems a dubious tactic with a minor suit when it takes you past 3NT.

Disagree with most of this. 3♥ shows a weak hand with 6 pieces; xxx Kxxxxx xxx x or something like that. You are anticipating further competition from opener, and you are pushing this as far as you would compete. With a 6-8 hand - say xxx AQTxxx xxx x I would either bid 2♥ or 4♥. 4♥ shows a distributional hand that thinks it can make 4♥ opposite a minimum takeout double, but there is also a preemptive aspect to it - I would make a 4♥ call with most hand that I would make a 3♥ call if I had an extra trump. 4♥ also includes many 5-5 or 6-4 hands with good playing strength, but without a lot of defense. If I had a hand like Axx AQJxxx xxx x, I really need to cue first, and then bid 4♥, since the hand is just too good for 4♥.

I didn't see the original hand before the edit, but I would bid 5♥ now.

[daveharty]

Phil, on 2011-August-01, 09:19, said:

Disagree with most of this. 3♥ shows a weak hand with 6 pieces; xxx Kxxxxx xxx x or something like that. You are anticipating further competition from opener, and you are pushing this as far as you would compete. With a 6-8 hand - say xxx AQTxxx xxx x I would either bid 2♥ or 4♥. 4♥ shows a distributional hand that thinks it can make 4♥ opposite a minimum takeout double, but there is also a preemptive aspect to it - I would make a 4♥ call with most hand that I would make a 3♥ call if I had an extra trump. 4♥ also includes many 5-5 or 6-4 hands with good playing strength, but without a lot of defense. If I had a hand like Axx AQJxxx xxx x, I really need to cue first, and then bid 4♥, since the hand is just too good for 4♥.

I didn't see the original hand before the edit, but I would bid 5♥ now.

I think your example hand (xxx AQTxxx xxx x) is a textbook 3H bid after (1m)-dbl-(pass), although it is very similar to an example on Eddie Kantar's site where he advocates a single jump with such a hand (in his example the long suit is spades, so it already has substantial preemptive value, and the suit isn't quite as good). I thought this was standard. The situation is a little muddier when OPENER'S suit is spades, because there is one less step below game to show various strength hands with hearts, so 4H might be bid with a wider range of hands. But if you have that extra step, why not use it to tighten the definitions of your responses? I'm not as convinced as you that opener is always going to have something else to say, since his partner passed over the double and the doubler probably has stuff in spades. But even if he does it seems like partner is well placed. I also don't get the "always cuebid with a game forcing hand" theory. I did a quick survey of some of the books in my bridge library; both Bill Root ("Bid game directly if you know where to play it") and Mike Lawrence ("If you know you can make a game, either bid it or make a cue bid which forces the partnership to get there eventually") seem to subscribe to the view that not all game forcing hands must go through a cue, and they represent a pretty wide swath of what might be considered "standard". One irritating thing about what has been written on this subject is that most example hands which authors use when discussing the cue bid in response to a double seem to be cut from the same cloth: relatively balanced hands with one or both four card majors. I had a lot of trouble finding example hands where advancer had one long major in a game-going hand.

I agree completely that 4H can include 2-suited offensively-oriented hands, but hopefully advancer is well-placed to make a good decision knowing that doubler has extra values. I think your other example hand (Axx AQJxxx xxx x) is borderline, but I think I would probably cuebid with it too, because it's easy to imagine a slam if partner has a perfect minimum takeout double with actual diamond shortness. But change it to Axx AQJxxx xx xx and I think I would just bid 4H.

[aguahombre]

Daveharty's analysis and conclusion that a second double shows this hand works for me. But it probably won't work for today's players who double 1m to show an opening hand with 13 cards. Those folks might need the double to suggest a hand without the traditionally expected heart support.

[gwnn]

We've been through this "does 3♥ show a good 2♥ bid or a weak hand with 6?" controversy. No consensus has been reached, nor is it expected soon.

Anyway, I think this is a trivial 5♥ bid.

[wyman]

I bid 5H and mutter something about trusting my vulnerable opponents.

[vianu2]

daveharty, on 2011-August-01, 11:47, said:

I agree completely that 4H can include 2-suited offensively-oriented hands, but hopefully advancer is well-placed to make a good decision knowing that doubler has extra values. I think your other example hand (Axx AQJxxx xxx x) is borderline, but I think I would probably cuebid with it too, because it's easy to imagine a slam if partner has a perfect minimum takeout double with actual diamond shortness. But change it to Axx AQJxxx xx xx and I think I would just bid 4H.

That way u like to bid over t/o doubles seems ok and may work many times but not against me .
Nevertheless, i'm a bit confused: so u bid 4♥ with Axx AQJxxx xx xx?
And with xx KJxxxx x Jxxx? Or xx Kxxxxxx x kxx?
Same bid for such different types of hands?
So u may lose more points than me, who simply bid 1♥ with 4 cards and 8-10 hcps .