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Vote: RKC or Quantitative

Poll: Vote: RKC or Quantitative (35 member(s) have cast votes)

1S - 3NT - 4NT

  1. RKC in [spades] (10 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  2. Quantitative to invite 6NT (25 votes [71.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 71.43%

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#1 User is offline   jet999 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 12:05

Thanks for your vote
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#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 12:16

For me, 3NT agrees Spades.
And I don't play Gerber.
When a major suit is agreed, 4NT is quant if there is an alternative route to RKCB but not otherwise.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 12:18

edited
Hi y'all!

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#4 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 12:31

I think in essence it depends on what 3NT means for you. If it defines a range of points then there is an argument for it being quantitive, but opener is not likely to have a flat hand, and what he wants to know about will be best given by ace asking.

I don't have a meaning for a 3NT response - just an unused potential bid looking for an owner. 6 tricks in a solid minor?
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#5 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 12:51

Before I vote, what is the meaning of 3NT?

The real answer to this question is 4NT is whatever you and your partner agrees to. So I think what we will be discussing is what should 4NT mean.

If 3NT is balanced something, with some range of hcp without implications of spade support, btw, itis quantitative for sure (for me and my partners).
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#6 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 13:17

How can I answer without knowing what 3NT means?
If it shows a balanced hand ("to play") then 4NT is quantitative.
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 15:33

 FrancesHinden, on 2011-July-30, 13:17, said:

How can I answer without knowing what 3NT means?
If it shows a balanced hand ("to play") then 4NT is quantitative.

We play it precisely 3343/3334 13-15 so partner knows he's facing exactly 3 spades. Still quantitative ? and does it matter whether you play 4 or 5 card majors here ?

I think we'd play 4N quantitative as we play 4 card majors and would cue to agree spades, but I don't think it's so clear if you play 5 card majors.
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#8 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 16:20

Regardless of what it shows, natural or fit with a balanced hand, i play 4NT quantitative. It doesn't make sense to me to play RKCB since i could do this simply by cueing at 4 level and then bid 4NT. Why would i use 4NT for RKCB here too ? Pd having 3 card or 4 card fit 4333 kinda hands doesnt mean we will ALWAYS have hands where we know if we wanna stay in game or we want to go slam. There are hands in between even when 3NT shows a fit.


Lets say we have AQxxx Kx QJx AJx, i would like to bid 4NT as invitation even if pd showed a balanced hand and 3 cards fit.
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#9 User is offline   AlexJonson 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 16:24

RKC. I am not smart enough to progress a quantitive auction here.
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 16:39

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-July-30, 15:33, said:

We play it precisely 3343/3334 13-15 so partner knows he's facing exactly 3 spades.


fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's.
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#11 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 18:44

I voted Q but if 3NT is support for spades then it's KC.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#12 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 18:58

 jillybean, on 2011-July-30, 16:39, said:

fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's.


Huh? What makes you think that?
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 21:12

 jillybean, on 2011-July-30, 16:39, said:

fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's.



 blackshoe, on 2011-July-30, 18:58, said:

Huh? What makes you think that?

I mean it is printed 3NT ____ to _____ and "everyone" plays it as 13-15 3 card support.
I don't know what is the best use for it (1♠:3N void splinter & 1♥ 3N maxi ♠ splinter perhaps :) ) but some balanced, gf range isn't it imho.
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#14 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2011-July-30, 23:06

 jillybean, on 2011-July-30, 21:12, said:

I mean it is printed 3NT ____ to _____ and "everyone" plays it as 13-15 3 card support.
I don't know what is the best use for it (1♠:3N void splinter & 1♥ 3N maxi ♠ splinter perhaps :) ) but some balanced, gf range isn't it imho.


If you play that it is exactly 3 card support with a 4333 hand and GF pts, then it is alertable. In fact the box on the ACBL card that should be marked is the "3nt" special meaning box.
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#15 User is offline   jdeegan 

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Posted 2011-July-31, 02:30

:P Wow! Reminds me of the night Jake and I invented the Jacoby 2NT. Jake had been using the 3NT bid as his strong raise in the majors on the grounds that it was an idle bid. I convinced him that playing 5 card majors, 2NT was almost an idle bid (you need the right 2-3-4-4 for it to be the optimal call, but with that holding you can temporize). And, of course, you save a huge chunk of bidding space by using 2NT. The rest is history.

Johnny Gerber was a genius for inventing the 4♣ ace asking bid. In its day it was a godsend. Every little old lady and clueless customer in the land knew 4♣ was always Gerber. Anyone with half a brain could engineer an effective slam auction sitting opposite a semi-comatose partner.

Things are so much better now. Almost half the responders to this poll (who are no doubt excellent bridge players) seem to think 4NT is some sort of ace asking bid. Of course, it matters not since 3NT is the same idle bid it was half a century ago.

Gee! I wonder if there might actually be a useful use (sic) for this idle bid?????
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#16 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2011-July-31, 05:02

 jdeegan, on 2011-July-31, 02:30, said:

Gee! I wonder if there might actually be a useful use (sic) for this idle bid?????

Solid 7 card minor, void support, and nothing outside?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2011-July-31, 05:33

 BunnyGo, on 2011-July-30, 23:06, said:

If you play that it is exactly 3 card support with a 4333 hand and GF pts, then it is alertable. In fact the box on the ACBL card that should be marked is the "3nt" special meaning box.


Precisely. This is discussed in the Bulletin series on how to fill out the system card.

3NT as a 4333 GF raise with 3 trumps is part of Bergen raises.

The black colored 2NT and 3NT lines under major suit (and minor suit, for that matter) raises are for natural bids, without support.
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#18 User is offline   jdeegan 

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Posted 2011-August-01, 02:54

 1eyedjack, on 2011-July-31, 05:02, said:

Solid 7 card minor, void support, and nothing outside?

:P Can't remember the last time that particular problem came up. Keep on trying, though. Idle bids are the Devil's workshop. I am thinking the initiation of a relay sequence. Sorta like the good old JTB responses.
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#19 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-August-01, 04:24

I knew I was going to vote quantitative even before I saw the auction. The point is valid, though, that it depends on the meaning of 3NT.
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#20 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-August-01, 17:37

 blackshoe, on 2011-July-31, 05:33, said:

Precisely. This is discussed in the Bulletin series on how to fill out the system card.

3NT as a 4333 GF raise with 3 trumps is part of Bergen raises..

I assume this 3NT range is 13-15 ??
Thus, 3NT! is a Sp raise. If Opener next bids 4C, 4D, or 4H , those would be Ctrl Cue bids for Sp as trump.... Afterwards, 4NT would be RKC for Sp.
( a la 1eyedjack in post # 16 ) .

So, the immediate 4NT should be reserved as Quantitative:
1S - 3NT!
4NT = Quant
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