[shyams]

---

At MPs, you hold this hand and watch partner open and opponents interfere. Due to the competition, partner's raise to 4♥ can be 3-card or 4-card suit (He knows your 3♥ showed at least 5 cards)

If you ask LHO, she confirms that East is most likely a 6-card ♠ suit.

We play 4NT as RKCB (we play 14-30 if it matters). We also have an agreement to cue 1st/2nd round controls.

Do you try for slam? If yes, do you choose 4NT or plan to cue bid?

[jschafer]

I would pass.

[mr1303]

Pass is automatic here.

[Fluffy]

auto pass we are minimum wich is enough to make pass clear, but we also have shortness in partner's suit to make things even worse

[aguahombre]

I don't think "autopass" is that easy. Do we have agreements?

--is 3H forcing (I vote yes)
--what do "impossible 3NT" and pass mean if 3H is forcing? (after the spade raise)
--would 4D be LTTC because 4C has to be natural?

My pard could pass 3S with a dog --but not with 3 hearts, so allowing for different strain.
My pard would have a dog with heart support to bid 4H, and could not have as much as X AQX KXX AXXXXX (which, seems to make slam without a trump lead or if clubs are 4-2).

So yes, I pass 4H...but would feel better about it knowing pard doesn't have the right cards.

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on 2011-February-20, 16:07, said:

--is 3H forcing (I vote yes)
--what do "impossible 3NT" and pass mean if 3H is forcing? (after the spade raise)
--would 4D be LTTC because 4C has to be natural?

3♥ is forcing because that's the default meaning, and the original poster would have told us if it wasn't.

The 3NT says that he wants to try to take nine tricks without a trump suit.

4♦ shows diamonds with longer clubs, and a reason to bid - almost certainly 4-6 or longer.

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on 2011-February-21, 03:41, said:

The 3NT says that he wants to try to take nine tricks without a trump suit.

Thanks. Some people think 3NT is impossible, or should be used as something else when the opps have shown nine or more of the suit and the auction is at the 3-level.

Hence my question, rather than stating it would, in fact be artificial for the OP. Just because 3NT is available to us to show good controls for hearts, so the OP problem wouldn't be as much of a problem, doesn't mean it isn't a desire to play in NT for others. Maybe I should use your quote as a tagline.

[cherdano]

aguahombre, on 2011-February-21, 05:06, said:

Thanks. Some people think 3NT is impossible, or should be used as something else when the opps have shown nine or more of the suit and the auction is at the 3-level.

Hence my question, rather than stating it would, in fact be artificial for the OP. Just because 3NT is available to us to show good controls for hearts, so the OP problem wouldn't be as much of a problem, doesn't mean it isn't a desire to play in NT for others. Maybe I should use your quote as a tagline.

Playing 3NT as anything other than natural seems really really bad, and I have never heard or seen anyone play that. Partner can still have a double stop in the opponent's 9-card fit! Or a single stop and running clubs.

[andy_h]

Agree with the schafer man.

[kayin801]

x, Axxx, Kxx, Axxxx is an excellent 6♥ and I don't think partner can make a move other than 4♥ with that. I don't see a great way for us to intelligently explore. Partner could also have x, Qxx, Kxx, KQJxxx in an absolute worst case scenario and A, xxxx, Kxx, KJxxx or other 1 key card hands in some normalish ones, it's far from certain that partner has 2 aces.

[shyams]

---

This was the full hand.
As you can see, RKCB does not help because partner's 5♠ response endplays you into 6♥ again. I wonder if the situation would improve for partner if he cues 5♣ and I bid 5♥. I think he would pass and make it.

At the table, prtner decided he had enough info and leaped to 6♥ !

[whereagles]

Pard was under pressure to bid game. He might not have his full bid, so you should pass. Preempts work.

[cherdano]

kayin801, on 2011-February-21, 08:07, said:

x, Axxx, Kxx, Axxxx is an excellent 6♥ and I don't think partner can make a move other than 4♥ with that. I don't see a great way for us to intelligently explore. Partner could also have x, Qxx, Kxx, KQJxxx in an absolute worst case scenario and A, xxxx, Kxx, KJxxx or other 1 key card hands in some normalish ones, it's far from certain that partner has 2 aces.

We have 6 hearts, and partner only promised 3 hearts (on a bad day he might have two!). He is quite a bit more likely to have 3 hearts than 4 hearts, which might mean two fewer ruffs.

As usual, partner is more likely to be minimum than maximum.

[Bbradley62]

cherdano, on 2011-February-25, 09:17, said:

As usual, partner is more likely to be minimum than maximum.

Couldn't North just as easily have had 8, AQ9, K542, AT983? Unlucky.

whereagles, on 2011-February-25, 09:01, said:

Preempts work.

[cherdano]

Bbradley62, on 2011-February-25, 09:54, said:

Couldn't North just as easily have had 8, AQ9, K542, AT983? Unlucky.

Ok, rule 1 was about the minimum being more likely.

Rule 2: If there are several potentially useless cards in partner's hand (♣KQ), he is more likely than not to have at least one of them.

[JLOGIC]

It seems like there should be a way to show a good raise to 4H since it is an extremely important hand type, and because the opps are presumably done bidding, and because we are in a force (giving us pass and X as available options).

That said, I don't have one.

[xxhong]

Forcing pass should be applied here to distinguish hands with slam interest or just a mere raise I suppose.
So hands with slam interest can pass and pull partner's possible double to 4H.
Minimum raising hands can just try 4H right away.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on 2011-February-21, 03:41, said:

3♥ is forcing because that's the default meaning, and the original poster would have told us if it wasn't.

The 3NT says that he wants to try to take nine tricks without a trump suit.

4♦ shows diamonds with longer clubs, and a reason to bid - almost certainly 4-6 or longer.

JLOGIC, on 2011-February-25, 16:38, said:

It seems like there should be a way to show a good raise to 4H since it is an extremely important hand type, and because the opps are presumably done bidding, and because we are in a force (giving us pass and X as available options).

That said, I don't have one.

I agree with both of these posts.
You might like to think that partner can pass 3S with a 'good' 4H bid, and only bid on a minimum, but partner will always want to show heart support as soon as possible if he has it because the auction may go wrong later. For example, 1C 2S 3H 3S P P 4D P ? now 4H just sounds as if it is giving preference on a minimum hand with a doubleton heart, but opener doesn't want to jump with a non-minimum because responder might be quite weak in high cards.

I'd rather give up the natural 4D bid and use that as a good 4H bid than give up a natural 3NT.
How about: 4D = good heart raise, double = extra values with 4+ diamonds and short hearts (easily passable), 4NT = 5-6 minors (4D then 4NT to ask for heart keycards) ?

[bluecalm]

Quote

How about: 4D = good heart raise, double = extra values with 4+ diamonds and short hearts (easily passable), 4NT = 5-6 minors (4D then 4NT to ask for heart keycards) ?

YEAHBUT...
IT would only work with ♣ opener (if partner opened 1♦ he again needs 4♣ as natural). Even here he might be dealt 6-5 sometimes.
In my opinion adopting such solution to bidding system is very dangerous.

Giving up natural 3NT seems like auto-destruction to me.

I think double should be t/o from partner perspective and maybe it's possible to double even with support and then hope partner won't pass. This obviously have other flaws though (like them bidding 4S and us having to double again hiding the support)