[Antraxxx]

---

What do I open here? If I bid 1♦ and hear 1♥ with no intervention, what's my rebid?

[ArtK78]

The opening bid is easy enough. There is no real alternative to opening 1♦.

The rebid is a problem. The obvious rebid is 3♦, showing a good suit and a good hand, which you certainly have. But that could create a guess for partner. He could have stuff in the rounded suits but nothing in spades and be afraid to bid 3NT (although you should have something in spades to bid 3♦). This problem can be solved by rebidding 1♠ over a 1♥ response. You run the risk of a spade raise, but then you rebid diamonds and, hopefully, arrive at 3NT when it is right.

If partner has a good hand, it will still take a lot to make slam. Your hand is good - 8 solid tricks - but not very flexible. In the unlikely event that partner has a long spade suit or a long club suit and enough in either hearts or clubs so that you are not off the first two tricks, slam may be cold. Otherwise, it will take a lot to make a slam.

These hands might produce a slam:

Qxxxx
Axxxxx
x
x

xxx
JTxx
x
AKQxx

It will be hard to reach 6♣ on the hand with a long club suit and not enough to make a 2/1. Of course, 6♦ will probably make on the second hand whenever 6♣ makes.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2011-February-03, 07:57, said:

The opening bid is easy enough. There is no real alternative to opening 1♦.

The rebid is a problem. The obvious rebid is 3♦, showing a good suit and a good hand, which you certainly have. But that could create a guess for partner. He could have stuff in the rounded suits but nothing in spades and be afraid to bid 3NT (although you should have something in spades to bid 3♦). This problem can be solved by rebidding 1♠ over a 1♥ response. You run the risk of a spade raise, but then you rebid diamonds and, hopefully, arrive at 3NT when it is right.

If partner has a good hand, it will still take a lot to make slam. Your hand is good - 8 solid tricks - but not very flexible. In the unlikely event that partner has a long spade suit and the ♣A, slam may be cold. Otherwise, it will take a lot to make a slam.

This is a problem we solve by either playing an 8 playing trick acol 2♦, or if not (and usually I don't) by playing 1x-1y-2N as GF unbalanced with an almost mandatory 3♣ relay, here I will bid 3♦ over 3♣ showing a one suited hand with diamonds which may have 3 hearts and partner will bid 3♥ with 5 over which I can bid a stop showing 3♠, 3♠ with a stop which leaves me guessing or 3N with a club stop. Not ideal, but not as bad as in a standard situation.

On the first hand you give, partner will break the 3♣ relay with 3♠ showing at least 5-5, but given the order he bid the suits, 6-5 so you will know about the big spade fit, but will have to guess as to whether he's 1-1 or 2-0 either way round in the minors I suspect to get to a slam.

On the second, we'd bid 1♦-2♣, this is the sort of hand where 2/1 can suffer, it's the price you pay for playing 2/1 which pays back in other places.

[peachy]

One solution is to rebid 3NT which promises nothing other than normal opening hand with a solid sixcarder in the opening suit which can be a major or a minor. It may create other problems on some hands but at least the suit length and quality and opening range is defined. Also, defenders have no clue what to lead against 3NT. With stronger hands and solid suit, or with 6-4, it is definitely better to find something else to do, not 3NT. With the example hand, I like 1S better than the underbid of 3D, even if we had the 3NT available for solid suit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Antraxxx, on 2011-February-03, 07:54, said:

---

What do I open here? If I bid 1♦ and hear 1♥ with no intervention, what's my rebid?

If you feel Opener is strong enough for a GF ( 8 playing tricks in his hand alone ) , here is another opportunity for the "GG" ( Gnasher Gadget over a 1H Response ) with my followups ( which I have mentioned ad nausium for some here ) .

1D - 1H
2S! ( GF, may be artificial ) - 2NT! ( asks )
??
.. 3C! = ( 3om )= 4s, no 3h, 5+d
.. 3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h
.. 3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d
.. 3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d

[nigel_k]

This is a difficult hand, hence the reference to the 'Gnasher Gadget' which is an excellent idea if you have discussed it and can remember it.

I think you have to open 1♦ since you aren't good enough for 2♣ and it doesn't solve any of your problems anyway. After the 1♥ response, you would quite like to play 3NT if partner has a club stopper. Even if he doesn't you may still be ok, but the problem with bidding 3NT immediately is that the opening lead will come through partner's clubs (or hearts). You'd prefer partner to be declarer to prevent that. Bidding 3♦ may work but you could miss game if partner passes and it will be hard for him to bid 3NT since he often won't have a spade stopper. The other choices are 1♠ or (preferably) 2♠. This allows partner to bid NT with a club stop and if partner has four spades raises he is less likely to have much in clubs so 4♠ or 5♦ could still be correct, e.g. QJxx Axxxx xx xx.

So I would bid 2♠ but 3NT is a good second choice.

[mike777]

prefer 3nt rebid but I understand those that might rebid 3d or 1s or 2s.


I do think rebidding 1s or 2s in the b/i section let alone for advancing players may make this hand more complicated. Prefer to focus more on learning to play rather than complicating this type of hand.

[mtvesuvius]

This is a difficult hand. For simplicity I'd recommend a 3N bid. The opponents don't always lead clubs, and even if they do, you still have chances. Besides, 3N is quite likely to be the best game, and getting there quickly and discretely has some advantages. I think at the table I'd bid 3N, not only because I don't want to risk a mixup with a jump shift (or worse), but sometimes putting the opponents on the spot works very well. They haven't taken 5 tricks yet.

If you wanted to jump shift, I would jump to 3♣, simply because I am sickened at the thought of partner thinking we have 4♠. Jumping to 3♣ has some advantages, will very rarely backfire, and is also quite likely to prevent the possibly fatal club lead. I think on paper 3♣ is the best bid, but I'm sticking to 3N.

And finally, playing any oddball jump-shift gadget is the least of your worries. That's something you should save for when you're really really bored, and quite comfortable with the rest of your bidding. It's a rare occurrence, and just adds extra unnecessary memory load.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-February-03, 14:23, said:

This is a difficult hand. For simplicity I'd recommend a 3N bid.

If you wanted to jump shift, I would jump to 3♣, simply because I am sickened at the thought of partner thinking we have 4♠. Jumping to 3♣ has some advantages, will very rarely backfire, and is also quite likely to prevent the possibly fatal club lead. I think on paper 3♣ is the best bid, but I'm sticking to 3N.

And finally, playing any oddball jump-shift gadget is the least of your worries. That's something you should save for when you're really really bored, and quite comfortable with the rest of your bidding. It's a rare occurrence, and just adds extra unnecessary memory load.

I agree, for simplicity sake, 3NT would show a long solid opening suit.

That said, if you ever decide on a "oddball jump-shift gadget", I recommend the 2S!-jump shift ( rather than 3C! ) over a 1H Response because:
1) That leaves 1D - 1H, 3C = as natural

and it also works over a 1C open :
2) 1C - 1H, 2S! ( and using my relatively simple follow-ups as described earlier )

[ At least one of the Nigels likes it ] .

[Antraxxx]

Thanks for all the answers. At the moment I'm still working on being acceptably adept at SAYC.
Aren't 1♦-1♥-2♠/3♣ both reverse bids and promise four card suits?
I can see the merit in 1♠ since the most likely answer is 1NT, and over a spade raise I can still pull to 3NT, and at worst it'll get us playing in a 4-3 fit (I don't play that thing where responder can raise with 3 card support when opener only promises four cards). I thought about a 3NT rebid but feared it'll kill the diamond slam possibility (which I now realize was highly unlikely)

[nigel_k]

Yes, 2♠ (or 1♠) promises a four card suit. But 3NT promises a club stopper and 3♦ shows a weaker hand. That's why this is a hard problem. 3NT doesn't give up on a diamond slam since it shows long diamonds and enough to bid game opposite a one level response, which is pretty close to what you have. 3NT cannot be a balanced hand since a balanced 20 would open 2NT and a balanced 18-19 would rebid 2NT over 1♥.

[Antraxxx]

Ah, good points. Back when I was learning it the 2NT as opener's second bid always seemed strange to me, because if you have 18+ and you know responder to have 6+, why not jump to 3NT with a balanced hand with no major fit? Finally, a year later, I get the answer

[ArcLight]

1♦ - 1♥
2♠
is ajump shift, forcing to game, showing 19+, thus is stronger than a reverse


1♦ - 1♥
1♠
is forcing anyway

[ArtK78]

ArcLight, on 2011-February-04, 10:18, said:

1♦ - 1♥
2♠
is ajump shift, forcing to game, showing 19+, thus is stronger than a reverse


1♦ - 1♥
1♠
is forcing anyway

Not in Standard bidding. 1♠ is not forcing.

Admittedly, it is rarely passed.

[Antraxxx]

ArcLight, on 2011-February-04, 10:18, said:

1♦ - 1♥
2♠
is ajump shift, forcing to game, showing 19+, thus is stronger than a reverse

Thanks. Could you explain why 2♠ would be stronger than 3♣?

[kgr]

Antraxxx, on 2011-February-05, 00:42, said:

ArcLight, on 2011-February-04, 10:18, said:

1♦ - 1♥
2♠
is a jump shift, forcing to game, showing 19+, thus is stronger than a reverse

Thanks. Could you explain why 2♠ would be stronger than 3♣?

It isn't. 3♣ is a jump shift as well and not a reverse.

[blackshoe]

There is no reverse after 1♦-1♥.

[Fluffy]

3NT rebid is very obvious, it doesn't promise anything, 3_NT its not a descriptive bid, its a decision.

[Phil]

ArcLight, on 2011-February-04, 10:18, said:

1♦ - 1♥
2♠
is ajump shift, forcing to game, showing 19+, thus is stronger promises higher minimum strength than a reverse


1♦ - 1♥
1♠
is forcing anyway

FYP

[Antraxxx]

Now I'm confused. I'll go read the sticky on reverses and possibly open another thread. Thanks all.