[Antraxxx]

---

The 3♥ bid by south shows a limit raise or better in spades. 4♠ by north is a positive response, a hand that would've bid 4 had the bidding been 1♠-3♠ with no interference.
Sitting south, is there any point in investigating slam here?

[the hog]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-26, 01:16, said:

---

The 3♥ bid by south shows a limit raise or better in spades. 4♠ by north is a positive response, a hand that would've bid 4 had the bidding been 1♠-3♠ with no interference.
Sitting south, is there any point in investigating slam here?

I guess you mean 4S shows better than a minimum. I dislike the 3H bid and prefer 3C followed by 4S. However I pass now.

[jschafer]

I agree with 3♥ and Pass now. There are still a lot of bids between 3♥ and 4♠ that partner could have made to show more slam interest.

[mcphee]

3H was not a good choice holding a 5 card suit that is a trick taking suit plus a fit along with another ace, 3C is clear with that hand. Now when partner leaps to 4S you are on the edge if you should bid again. For example if you did elect to bid 5C do you really think partner expects a 5 card suit to the AK? Also 4S does not require extra values per say, just a hand that wants to try and play game opposite a possible 3/4 card raise. Regardless of the result S is better off understanding the bidding is about asking and telling, they forget to tell partner about a very good feature of the hand.

[Zelandakh]

I would suggest it is non-trivial as to which is the important feature of South's hand to show, the good club suit or the spade support. Depending upon how the ensuing suction develops (west bidding 4H for example) either might have been right. Thus neither 3C nor 3H are wrong but rather a matter of style. One option with the South hand would have been a response of 4C which (if agreed) shows spade support and a good club suit and the (offensive) strength for 4S. Many insist on 4 spades for this bid though. Another systematic point that can be very useful on auctions like this is the serious/frivolous 3NT. An example response structure on this auction for North's rebid might be:

3S = min
3N = enough for game and decent slam hand (frivolous 3NT)
4C/D/H = significant extras, cue bid
4S = enough for game and poor slam hand

The key in any response structure over an open-ended raise is for partner not to jump without a good reason, thus allowing space for those occasions when the raiser has extra values.

[Antraxxx]

Thanks for the responses so far. I was sitting south (and don't object to any criticism of my bidding, it's definitely my weakest area). Some followup questions:
a ) The thought of bidding 3♣ never even crossed my mind. I see the merit in retrospect, similar to how opposite a 1♠ opening I would delay with 2♣ before supporting spades. However, is 3♣ forcing in this situation? Moreover, I often see people saying "in a competitive auction, support with support". Why doesn't this apply here?
b ) After North's 4♠, I thought I had a great hand. I didn't expect him to cue bid for slam when I have the ♣ and ♦ aces, but I did think many combinations of honors could work for us, so I went with 4N and stopped in 5♠ after the 1/4 response. Obviously that was misguided, but how do I know to avoid it next time? It seemed that Q♣, any ♦ honor, good spades, any of those allow a decent chance for slam to make. So what about this hand makes it not good enough for slam opposite a non-minimum opener in spades?

[gwnn]

3♣ is bad in my opinion. It is a game-forcing bid but I don't think the suit is long/good enough to be shown. 3♥ is better, well done.

4NT is silly. Partner does not have slam interest opposite most 3♥ bids, and you have two small hearts. You are not that far from minimum. It's high time to pass.

[Fluffy]

3♥ gets your hand across in 1 bid and is 100% correct, this doesn't mean that 3♣ might not work better sometimes, but keep the things simple, its still a balanced hand with support.

4♠ shows a hand that is worth game opposite an invite, but nothing extra, partner had room to bid 4♣/♦ but decided not to, we don't have enough extras to move on.

[mtvesuvius]

I strongly dislike 3♣ for a number of reasons. The most concerning is when LHO makes a call of some number of hearts. Now partner does not know we have support, and cannot evaluate his hand properly... That means we're going to have to make a very difficult guess later. The next is that you won't be able to get much useful information from partner, and the later 4♠ bid will pre-empt any further slam investigation. 3♥ describes the hand very well, and is the correct bid IMO.

3♣ is forcing here, if you have a weaker hand with clubs, you have to pass and wait for partner to reopen. Sometimes you'll miss partscores, but overall playing 3♣ as forcing makes life MUCH easier when it's important.

As you said in your original post, 4♠ shows a hand that would accept an Invite. If partner had a hand that would have slam opposite a hand better than an invite, they have a lot of bids between 3♥ and 4♠ to show that. Therefore, partner is limited. I don't want to define limited by HCP, since that isn't accurate. Partner is limited in that they thought that opposite most normal (12)13-15 raises, they don't want to be in slam... But opposite a 10-11(12) raise they want to be in game.

If you think about your relative strength compared to what you have shown, and bids available to partner before making a move over a signoff by partner, it will improve your slam bidding a lot. Here you have shown a decent 10 count or better with 3 card or better support... Your hand isn't too much more than that. Yes, it's got quick tricks, but the small doubleton heart, only three trumps, and lack of club interiors makes this hand not worth more than a minimum GF raise, which will be happy to pass partner's 4♠ call.

[Antraxxx]

Thanks all (and especially mtvesuvius) for your answers. After the board I had no doubt I made a mistake looking for slam (all the results were 4♠= and ours was the only 5♠-1) but until now had no real idea why. I tried to do that thing you guys always do where you think "well opposite <some hand> slam is laydown and opposite <that hand> it's on a finesse" etc but obviously I'm not very good at it yet

[Phil]

Agree with Mt. Vesuvius about the meritless 3♣. Unless I can magically somehow control the auction later, I would venture that 3♣ specifically denies spade support.

[nigel_k]

3♣ is probably ok if they bid 4♥ as you can bid 4♠. But you'll be in quite a poor position if LHO is unkind enough to jump straight to 5♥ and it goes pass, pass, back to you. Since you plan to play the hand in spades, the reason to bid 3♣ is to help partner evaluate. Usually the location of secondary honours will help partner the most so bidding a suit such as KQJxx would help more than when the suit is AKxxx. So I agree with 3♥.

Since you are unlimited partner should not jump to 4♠ unless he has a minimum for that action. If he has any more than that he should cue bid, e.g. 4♠ with AKxxxx x KQx xxx, but 4♦ with AKxxxx x KQx Qxx. Some people would cue bid even with the first hand.