[straube]

I open 1C (16+) with AJ97 Q96 AJ AJ95 and hear 3D by LHO and X by partner. X is GF without a suit (particularly a major suit) and is takeout oriented but could have balanced or slightly offshape patterns.
I would expect partner to have 3-cd support for the majors but we haven't discussed it much.

We also play Thrump doubles over our non-1C openings. The idea of the thrump double is that it asks for a stopper. Without a stopper, suits are bid up the line.
Partner's double was not a thrump double, but as a matter of partnership style, I thought I would mention it.

I rebid 3N and it went down in flames. Partner had QT83 A752 7 QT74. Classic takeout double.

Do I need to rebid 3S here? The danger that I see is that partner can't know I have a diamond stopper. Is he allowed to rebid 3N himself without a diamond stopper? Playing the big hand for one? Saying "I already made a takeout double so I'm not likely to have much in diamonds and you have the majority of our points anyway"

If he has QT8 A75 Qx QT74, I'll regret not bidding 3N. Especially because it needs to be played from my side.

Seems like a 3S bid endplays us into a 4S contract on a 4-3 while 3N gives up on a 4-4 spade fit. Of course 3S might also lead to other contracts...like 4H on a 4-3 fit.

Is there a solution? What's my best bid?

[pooltuna]

looks like bad luck mostly

[RMB1]

If partner's double denies a major, I don't think he can afford to bid like this.
Either double and pull 3NT to 4♦, or 4♦ directly; and pass 4NT if that's what opener bids over 4♦.

[gwnn]

3♠ yes, sure if partner has the Qx specifically you'll be sorry but you'll also be sorry if he has xxx or so and 4 spades. You shouldn't sell AJ tight as a real stopper and here you have a good alternative in 3♠.

[bucky]

Precision 1♣ opening is more vulnerable to preemptive bids. There is no perfect solution, you just have to guess, and make up the loss by gaining on other sequences.

[Fluffy]

1NT-3♦-X wouldn't put you in a much better place

[bucky]

Fluffy, on 2010-October-20, 14:21, said:

1NT-3♦-X wouldn't put you in a much better place

Not much better, but slightly better. At least if you bid 3♠ now, partner will play you for just 4-card suit, and partner also knows you have a balanced hand. 1NT in standard opening is much more descriptive than the precision 1♣ for this hand.

[straube]

bucky, on 2010-October-20, 15:04, said:

Not much better, but slightly better. At least if you bid 3♠ now, partner will play you for just 4-card suit, and partner also knows you have a balanced hand. 1NT in standard opening is much more descriptive than the precision 1♣ for this hand.

If partner doubled and I had 5 spades I would bid 4S directly (unless I had extra) so if I bid 3S here over partner's double, partner should play me for exactly 4.

The problem is that I have to decide between 3N and pretty much a spade contract at my first rebid. Partner is very unlikely to be able to rebid 3N over 3S unless we have the agreement that it doesn't promise a stopper. Heart or club contracts are possible but unlikely.

[bucky]

straube, on 2010-October-20, 18:16, said:

If partner doubled and I had 5 spades I would bid 4S directly (unless I had extra) so if I bid 3S here over partner's double, partner should play me for exactly 4.

The problem is that I have to decide between 3N and pretty much a spade contract at my first rebid. Partner is very unlikely to be able to rebid 3N over 3S unless we have the agreement that it doesn't promise a stopper. Heart or club contracts are possible but unlikely.

Does partner's double promise at least 3 spades? What would he do with 2425 shape?

[gwnn]

But straube I still don't understand, with this fragile stop why do you want to play 3NT so much? If partner has the K or Q of diamonds sure you have a double stop but usually he won't have anything of the sort so you're going down (8 tricks off the top is a tall order). Partner will not pull 3NT because next time you'll have KJx or KQx, much better.

[straube]

bucky, on 2010-October-20, 23:08, said:

Does partner's double promise at least 3 spades? What would he do with 2425 shape?

We've talked about that pattern and I think agreed that we would likely have to double with that shape. In that case, I'm bidding 4S with 5 spades and playing a 5-2 fit. That pattern is one reason why I wouldn't want to commit to 4S with only four.

[straube]

gwnn, on 2010-October-21, 03:40, said:

But straube I still don't understand, with this fragile stop why do you want to play 3NT so much? If partner has the K or Q of diamonds sure you have a double stop but usually he won't have anything of the sort so you're going down (8 tricks off the top is a tall order). Partner will not pull 3NT because next time you'll have KJx or KQx, much better.

My partner would agree with you. He said he wouldn't have rebid 3N "in a 100 hands". I think I agree with you and him but I still don't like being endplayed into (very probably) a 4S contract. For all I know, partner could have 3334 or 3325 or 3343 or 3433 or 2425. If he has those patterns with four hearts, then he'll rebid 4D over 3S to see if I can bid 4H (at least playing in the right 4-3 fit).

Anyway, I don't want to play 3N so much, I want to be able to offer a choice and there isn't room to do that.

[ArtK78]

The problem with strong club systems is that it is often true that both partners don't mention a suit that they actually hold in their first two bids. That is why strong club systems are vulnerable to preemption. That was the problem here - neither the 1♣ opening nor the value-showing double promised any particular suit.

Given that, I would have bid 3NT on the strong hand. All that you need in responder's hand is Qx or Txx of diamonds or better and you will have two diamond stoppers, which should go a long way towards making 3NT the best contract available. A 3♠ bid would imply a 5 card spade holding on this auction.

This is one of the main reasons why I don't like to play strong club systems, especially strong club systems like Precision which have a low threshold for opening 1♣. At least with Blue Club you should have a 17 count to open 1♣. The difference in frequency between 16 HCP and 17 HCP is substantial. Club systems are great when the opponents don't interfere. They can be a nightmare when the opponents intervene.

[awm]

Much as others have mentioned, I don't think this is really a problem with a strong club system. You could have exactly the same auction after 1NT-(3♦) playing standard with strong notrumps and negative doubles at the three-level.

I like 3♠ on this hand. This gives partner some options:

(1) If partner has four spades, he bids 4♠ and we are in the best spot.
(2) If partner has fewer spades and a dubious diamond stop, he can bid 3NT. We should know that after the original double, partner will not have diamonds locked up forever (i.e. we can pull with a stiff diamond or a fifth spade or something like that). Of course, on the actual hand we pass and play 3NT opposite partner's Qxx or Kx or whatever.
(3) If partner has neither four spades nor a diamond control, it is likely that we are finding ♦x or ♦xx opposite in which case 3NT is pretty dubious anyway. Partner will bid 4♣ or 4♦ to search for strain, and there's no particular reason to think 3NT would've been better than whatever game we end in.

Note that bidding 3NT over the double gets us to the wrong spot almost always opposite case (1), reaches the same spot we'd have played anyway opposite (2) although from the other side, and probably hurts us more than it helps us in case (3).

[mfa1010]

straube, on 2010-October-21, 11:34, said:

My partner would agree with you. He said he wouldn't have rebid 3N "in a 100 hands". I think I agree with you and him but I still don't like being endplayed into (very probably) a 4S contract. For all I know, partner could have 3334 or 3325 or 3343 or 3433 or 2425. If he has those patterns with four hearts, then he'll rebid 4D over 3S to see if I can bid 4H (at least playing in the right 4-3 fit).

Anyway, I don't want to play 3N so much, I want to be able to offer a choice and there isn't room to do that.

I would have bid 3NT too. We have to be practical. Playing 3NT with a 4-4 major can work out ok, but getting to some inferior 'fit' instead of just playing 3NT with a stopper and two balanced hands tends to be a disaster.

Partner's double is usually a balanced hand. He can bid a fivecard major instead of doubling, if he is short in diamonds.

4♦ over 3♠ should be a strong raise to 4♠ imo, not choice of games.

[mfa1010]

awm, on 2010-October-21, 13:26, said:

Much as others have mentioned, I don't think this is really a problem with a strong club system. You could have exactly the same auction after 1NT-(3♦) playing standard with strong notrumps and negative doubles at the three-level.

Hmm, I think it is very different:

1. After 1NT partner knows that 3♠ is usually 4. After 1♣ it could be any hand.

2. If partner wants to try 3NT without a stopper it is a much, much better shot to do so opposite a 1NT opener that gets to declare and that is balanced than opposite a random strong hand where the contract is wrongsided.

We are clearly better off trying 3♠ if we have opened 1NT than if we have opened 1♣ strong.

[dake50]

Agree gwnn. Don't rush D:AJ into 3NT with 3S available.
Let 6xclubs semi-solid, try this stop.

[the hog]

3S is a far better bid. 3NT is the bid of a butcher.

[kayin801]

I don't mind 3NT or 3♠, sometimes one will work, sometimes the other will. If you are definitely promising takeout-ish shape I like 3♠ more though. Sometimes partner will bid 3NT over 3♦ with a stopper, so they can safely rebid 3NT after 3♠ with a half stopper.

[dake50]

With partnership style, Double denies S-fit with values.
Now I-I-I have a real problem.