[twcho]

Scoring: IMP

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This is board 19 of round 2 of the Rosenblum Cup. Out of the 128 NS pairs holding this cards, only 5 pairs managed to bid the 100% cold 6NT while another 8 arrived in the making 6♦. And one failed in 6♥ and another one failed in 7♦.

Not sure this hand is really so difficult to bid. Can you bid to the optimal contract using your favorite system?

[Cyberyeti]

1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
3♣-3♦
3♥-3♠
3N-4♣
4♦-4♥
5♦-?

2♣ FSF only F1 not FG as we play it
3♣ is either natural or a club holding like Ax/Axx that's better led thru than up to, better than minimum, often 15+, but a control rich 14 will do
3♥ won't be a shortage in partner's suit, so confirms the nature of the 3♣ bid
4♥ is RKC
5♦ 2 with the Q

At this point N can pencil in 4 unknown spades, Kx, KQxxx/AQxxx, Ax with at least 2 more points and most of the time at least 3 more (one less if he has A♦ rather than K). If they're the Q♠, slam is cold if the diamonds behave, if another Q then you're on the spade finesse if the diamonds behave (possibly or the J♥ dropping). You're only in bad shape if partner has J♥ and J♣ (or one of them and A♦) so I think I would bid a slam. I don't see any particular point in bidding it in diamonds (I suppose there's a chance he has AQ109x of trumps and 4 small spades and you can ruff a spade after oppo with Kx of trumps covers, but equally he might have the Q♠ and a spade lead secures a ruff when in with A♦).

Edit - this is in the context of a weak no trump, 4 card major system where 1♦-1♥-1♠ is precisely 4144 or otherwise 5 diamonds.

[hanp]

Maybe

1NT - 2C
2S - 4NT
pass

Really dislike Cyberyeti's 3C bid btw.

[Cyberyeti]

hanp, on Oct 6 2010, 06:02 AM, said:

Maybe

1NT - 2C
2S - 4NT
pass

Really dislike Cyberyeti's 3C bid btw.

What do you use it for ? I've played in 3N too often with Qx(x) in dummy and Ax(x) in hand rather than vice versa to want to play it any other way.

[hanp]

I use it to show 4 clubs. Not only does it become almost imposible to bid 4144 and 4054 hands if you don't, you also take up a lot of room for no good reason. With the given hand I would bid 2D (I do have 5 good ones don't I?) which is the cheapest bid. It makes it much much easier for partner. My second choice would be 2H, which I frequently bid on a doubleton. My third choice would be 2S, which doesn't promise a 5-card suit for me.

About Ax, a few weeks ago Justin told me that Ax is not such a bad holding for declaring notrump. Since then I saw one hand where partner has J10x and one hand where partner has J9x, both times 3NT was much better from my side (and also, I play them much better). And Axx is very different from Ax.

But that is all irrelevant, we don't even know where partner is heading. Most important is to make the best description of our hand and give partner the room to show his.

[Fluffy]

with relays not with 100% confidence.

1NT-2♦ (13-15-strong relay)
2♠-2NT (4 spades-relay)
3♠-4♣ (4252-keycard blackwood in diamonds)
4♠-5♣ (2 and queen-kings)
5♥-6♦ (♥K-to play)


with natural methods

1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♦-2NT
3NT

At this point we are off 6 keycards (♠Q, ♥K, ♦ AKQ, ♣A), and it is completelly unbelievable that partner has 5 of them. Maybe with 14-16 NT you can make it.

[NickRW]

twcho, on Oct 6 2010, 09:35 AM, said:

Not sure this hand is really so difficult to bid. Can you bid to the optimal contract using your favorite system?

No - we'd get to 4N probably. I am not sure that many pairs would find it easy - it really depends on both South's long suits and double stops in both the short ones - there aint much to spare.

[kenrexford]

1NT-3♣(puppet)
3♦-3♠
3NT-4NT
???????????

[Cyberyeti]

hanp, on Oct 6 2010, 07:00 AM, said:

I use it to show 4 clubs. Not only does it become almost imposible to bid 4144 and 4054 hands if you don't, you also take up a lot of room for no good reason. With the given hand I would bid 2D (I do have 5 good ones don't I?) which is the cheapest bid. It makes it much much easier for partner. My second choice would be 2H, which I frequently bid on a doubleton. My third choice would be 2S, which doesn't promise a 5-card suit for me.

About Ax, a few weeks ago Justin told me that Ax is not such a bad holding for declaring notrump. Since then I saw one hand where partner has J10x and one hand where partner has J9x, both times 3NT was much better from my side (and also, I play them much better). And Axx is very different from Ax.

But that is all irrelevant, we don't even know where partner is heading. Most important is to make the best description of our hand and give partner the room to show his.

Do you play 2♣ FG ? F2N? if you do, I would agree with you that 2♦ is the best bid, but we can pass 2♦ so it's not an option.

[W Kovacs]

I don't see us ever getting there.

1♦ - 1♥
1♠ - 2♣*
2NT - 3NT

2♣=fsf

Because of our limited 1♦ openings (11-15), North knows we don't have the horses for a nt slam, even with a maximum.

[mikeh]

we didn't get there, and the board was pushed.

To see just how difficult it is, imagine opener upgraded the 14 copunt 4=2=5=2 to a strong 1N (I don't like that due to the shape and the l;ack of a rebid problem). It's impossible now, absent a relay method...any quantitative auction is bopund to be rejected.

I could and should have made more of an effort than I did. Maybe:

1♦  1♥
1♠  2♣
2N  3♦
3♥  3♠
4♣

1♠ promised an unbalanced hand, and when he bids 2N rather than 3♣, he is marked with 5+ diamonds. Had I bid 3♦, the momentum of the auction might have propelled us to the slam. Note that we have zero wasted cards.

[Zelandakh]

twcho, on Oct 6 2010, 09:35 AM, said:

AKJ
AT73
J82
K54

QT83
K5
KQT73
A6

Not sure this hand is really so difficult to bid. Can you bid to the optimal contract using your favorite system?

1D = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
1H = 10+ relay
1N = 4+ spades
2C = relay
2N = 14-17, 5 diamonds, 4 spades
3C = relay
3H = 4=2=5=2
4C = puppet to 4D
4D = forced
4H = RKCB for diamonds
5D = 2/5 with DQ
6D = at least 50%. HK not located so 6NT is too risky.

[Fluffy]

Zelandakh, on Oct 6 2010, 03:25 PM, said:

twcho, on Oct 6 2010, 09:35 AM, said:

AKJ
AT73
J82
K54

QT83
K5
KQT73
A6

Not sure this hand is really so difficult to bid. Can you bid to the optimal contract using your favorite system?

1D = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
1H = 10+ relay
1N = 4+ spades
2C = relay
2N = 14-17, 5 diamonds, 4 spades
3C = relay
3H = 4=2=5=2
4C = puppet to 4D
4D = forced
4H = RKCB for diamonds
5D = 2/5 with DQ
6D = at least 50%. HK not located so 6NT is too risky.

You are playing in the wrong hand, you can be off ♣AQ for a start, don't think slam is % on your auction, I located ♥K and even then I am not sure I should be in slam, let alone 6NT. But on my auction opener was limited to 15, not 17 so that probably means something.

[kayin801]

twcho, on Oct 6 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

Can you bid to the optimal contract using your favorite system?

1♦ (limited to 15)-1♥
1♠-3NT
P

No.

If I were being pushy and really felt my hand was getting a lot better after 1♠, and if I wanted to result after seeing both hands, we have a gadget that might help:

1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣ (2-way NMF)
2♦ (forced)-2NT (Asking about minor suit length)
3♣ (1 5+ card minor)-3♦ (asks)
3♠ (diamonds)-4♦(slam try in diamonds)
4♥ (RKC, I have a good hand)-5♣ (2, no Q)
6♦ (you asked) - 6NT (the hand should be played from my side and I look NT-ish)

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on Oct 6 2010, 03:49 PM, said:

You are playing in the wrong hand, you can be off ♣AQ for a start, don't think slam is % on your auction, I located ♥K and even then I am not sure I should be in slam, let alone 6NT. But on my auction opener was limited to 15, not 17 so that probably means something.

Being off CAQ is possible yes, and if CA is offside then we are down. But partner has also shown 14hcp which have to be somewhere. Note also that most hands with 1 ace and 3 queens would be downgraded and also Qx in either rounded suit would be downgraded. When you take all that into account I think 50% is quite reasonable but am open to counter-examples. The worst hand I came up with was something like Qxxx/QJ/AKQxx/Qx. Any hand without the CQ must surely contain the HK.

Edit: as an addition I would agree that this is a difficult hand and it would be tempting in practise to just bid 4NT after 3H (shape resolution) as a quantitative try which would be passed.

[mike777]

1nt(14-16)=3nt

easy

[P_Marlowe]

Lets see how far I come with our system, 2/1 with weak NT

1D - 1H
1S (1) - 2C (2)
3NT (3) - Pass (4)

(1) unbal.
(2) FSF, inv+
(3) max., club stopper, no 3 hearts
(4) with 16 or more opener would have bid 3C,
so the combined HCP will be at best 31/32,
and the diamond fit is not discovered

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Flameous]

With dejeuner (FP)

Pass (14+, 8+rel-points) - 1C (GF 7+ rel-points)
2H (Min, 4S, 5+D) - 2S (Relay)
3C (4252) - 3H (Relay)
3NT (9 relay points, even nbr of kings) - 4C (Relay)
4H (A/K in D, not in S) - 4S (Relay)
5S (Shows basically every card in hand: in order HK, CA, DQ, SQ and denies HQ.

Easy 6NT

I'm not sure if any relay is exceptionally aggressive. Lame SO in 3NT is possible after 2H.

[manudude03]

If I needed a swing I might get pushy with the N hand, but probably landing in 3NT (1D-1H-1S-3NT).

I guess my "pushier" auction is

1D-1H
1S-2C
2D-3D
3H-3S
4C-4H
4NT-5H
6NT

[Free]

MOSCITO:
1♥ - 1♠ (9-14 4+♠ unbal ; relay)
1NT - 2♦ (exactly 4♠ ; GF relay)
3♣ - 3♦/3NT (4=2=5=2 ; relay/signoff - doesn't really matter)
4♣ - 4♦ (9 AKQ points ; relay)
5♥ - 6♦/6NT (2 tophonours ♦, 1 ♠, 1/2 in ♥ and ♣ ; depends)

Responder knows opener's hand: Qxxx-HX-KQxxx-HX (X can be a tophonour). To get to 9 AKQ points, opener needs 5 in ♥ and ♣. Holding ♥A and ♣K, opener must have either ♥K♣A, or ♥Q♣AQ. Sadly there's not enough room to investigate. In the first case 6NT is laydown, in the second case opps need to lead ♥ and declarer can only finesse. 6♦ seems laydown in any case. So in imps I'd just bid 6♦, in MP I might risk 6NT (especially if I signed off in 3NT and partner zoomed).

In my favorite "natural" system, it depends a lot on North's choices:
1♦ - 1♥
1♠ - 2♦!
3♦ - ???
(2♦ GF relay)
Now it depends if North bids 4♦, 3NT or 4NT. Opener can have up to 15HCP, but is it enough to go past 3NT? I guess not...