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3 or 4-card raise Bidding

#1 User is offline   InTime 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 04:21

Scoring: IMP

We are playing 2/1.
My question is how do you show a 3 or 4-card raise with the following bidding?:
1♠ - (Pass) - 2♥ - Pass
? How do you show a 3 or 4-card raise?
The fact that you have a 3-card or a 4-card raise can be of great importance here.
If you just bid 3♥, your partner will never know if you raised on 3 or 4.
Regards
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#2 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 04:29

Valid question, and I'm afraid to say that I cannot distinguish between the two with my regular partner.

Mind you, I wouldn't bid 2H on this hand but 2C (GF relay) after which opener immediately shows 4+ hearts so we do find out, but if responder's hand is weaker we would bid 2H and have the same problem.

I know Wortel-Schollaardt play that 3H shows 4, and with only 3 hearts they bid 2S. Over 2S, responder can relay to find 3-card support. I haven't played this so I can't judge whether it is better.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#3 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 05:45

I thought you show the 4th heart by pretending to have the trump queen when partner asks. ;)
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 06:54

with 4 card raise you normally have a singleton in a minor and splinter accordingly. 3 card limit raise can be overloaded with 5422
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#5 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 06:58

3♥ with 3-cardsupport.

4♥ with 4 cards and minimum. Cuebid with more than minimum.

You might consider using 3NT as artificial. Might be used as a four-card raise and not minimum, in which case 4♣/♦ can be splinter.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.

Gnasher
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#6 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 07:40

For me:
2♠ = almost any hand with <16HCP, can still have 3♥ (not 4+♥)
2NT = 16+, no shortness (5332/54m22/6322/7222) => 2-3♥
3♥ = 16+, 4+♥ / 16+, 3♥ with shortness
3NT = <16HCP, 5422, values in the doubletons
4m = <16HCP, 4+♥, shortness m
4♥ = <16HCP, 5422, weak doubletons

With the above hand, we'd rebid 3NT.

I don't like Han's suggestion to start with a 2♣ GF relay, because it's not always clear for me if partner has 3♥ or not (usually it is, but there are some problem hands). On the other hand, it makes it easier to find 5-3 minor fits...

With a poor 5 card ♥ I'd definitely start with 2♣ for sure, so we'll only play in ♥ when we have a sure 9 card fit.
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 08:47

I can't, but 1♠-2♥ is a bulky auction. 4♥ would be a picture bid denying a minor suit control.
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#8 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 15:48

I also play a load of artificiality after 1S - 2H to distinguish range and number of hearts (1S - 2H - 3H is about 15+ with 3 hearts or 5422, 2S is multi-way including minimum hands with heart support).
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#9 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 17:27

Free, on Aug 30 2010, 08:40 AM, said:

For me:
2♠ = almost any hand with <16HCP, can still have 3♥ (not 4+♥)
2NT = 16+, no shortness (5332/54m22/6322/7222) => 2-3♥
3♥ = 16+, 4+♥ / 16+, 3♥ with shortness
3NT = <16HCP, 5422, values in the doubletons
4m = <16HCP, 4+♥, shortness m
4♥ = <16HCP, 5422, weak doubletons

With the above hand, we'd rebid 3NT.


I think Free's system makes sense, and it's not complicated.
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#10 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2010-August-30, 23:21

ONEferBRID, on Aug 31 2010, 01:27 AM, said:

Free, on Aug 30 2010, 08:40 AM, said:

For me:
2♠ = almost any hand with <16HCP, can still have 3♥ (not 4+♥)
2NT = 16+, no shortness (5332/54m22/6322/7222) => 2-3♥
3♥ = 16+, 4+♥ / 16+, 3♥ with shortness
3NT = <16HCP, 5422, values in the doubletons
4m = <16HCP, 4+♥, shortness m
4♥ = <16HCP, 5422, weak doubletons

With the above hand, we'd rebid 3NT.


I think Free's system makes sense, and it's not complicated.

Well, I guess my "3 shows 3" and "4 shows 4", was to much after all. :)
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.

Gnasher
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#11 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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  Posted 2010-August-31, 05:43

OleBerg, on Aug 31 2010, 12:21 AM, said:

Well, I guess my "3 shows 3" and "4 shows 4", was too much after all.  ;)

sry... your way is simpler... <_<
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#12 User is offline   PrinceNep 

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Posted 2010-August-31, 10:14

OleBerg, on Aug 30 2010, 07:58 AM, said:

3♥ with 3-cardsupport.

4♥ with 4 cards and minimum. Cuebid with more than minimum.

You might consider using 3NT as artificial. Might be used as a four-card raise and not minimum, in which case 4♣/♦ can be splinter.

What in this auction would be a Cuebid? Wouldn't everything else be natural? I'm not sure I'm ready to let the auction 1S-2H-3m to be a cuebid in support of hearts and not be natural. I'm far more likely to need these calls as natural than I am to show a 16+ with 4+♥ hand. If I bid 2♠ with these hands, then we need a relay sequence ... now your system of 3♥ shows 3 and 4♥ shows 4 is not so easy.

I would also think that 2NT and 3NT would be far more useful to show range than to be used artificially. Partner and I play 12-14/18+ 2NT rebid and 15-17 3NT rebid in these auctions. Making either of these artificial would put a lot of strain on opener.

What alternatives are there?
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#13 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2010-August-31, 12:40

PrinceNep, on Aug 31 2010, 06:14 PM, said:

OleBerg, on Aug 30 2010, 07:58 AM, said:

3♥ with 3-cardsupport.

4♥ with 4 cards and minimum. Cuebid with more than minimum.

You might consider using 3NT as artificial. Might be used as a four-card raise and not minimum, in which case 4♣/♦ can be splinter.

What in this auction would be a Cuebid? Wouldn't everything else be natural? I'm not sure I'm ready to let the auction 1S-2H-3m to be a cuebid in support of hearts and not be natural. I'm far more likely to need these calls as natural than I am to show a 16+ with 4+♥ hand. If I bid 2♠ with these hands, then we need a relay sequence ... now your system of 3♥ shows 3 and 4♥ shows 4 is not so easy.

I would also think that 2NT and 3NT would be far more useful to show range than to be used artificially. Partner and I play 12-14/18+ 2NT rebid and 15-17 3NT rebid in these auctions. Making either of these artificial would put a lot of strain on opener.

What alternatives are there?

Cuebid is 4♣/4♦.

I'm not really that experienced in 2/1, but I would prefer to put a balanced range in 2♠, rather than 3-card support, if you cant stand 2NT being 11+.

(Maybe saying that all minimum hands bid 2♠.)

Anyways, it was just a suggestion. The idée is very usefull in a non-2/1 context. In 2/1 others will be better judges.
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.

Gnasher
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#14 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-August-31, 13:43

InTime, on Aug 30 2010, 05:21 AM, said:

Dealer: North
Vul: N/S
Scoring: IMP
♠ AK842
♥ J972
♦ QJ
♣ K9
♠ Q9
♥ AK654
♦ A85
♣ A62
 

We are playing 2/1.
My question is how do you show a 3 or 4-card raise with the following bidding?:
1♠ - (Pass) - 2♥ - Pass
? How do you show a 3 or 4-card raise?
The fact that you have a 3-card or a 4-card raise can be of great importance here.
If you just bid 3♥, your partner will never know if you raised on 3 or 4.
Regards

I can't except as others have mentioned..I can splinter with 4 card support or if responder starts rkc I can show the Q or extra length.
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