[bd71]

Scoring: MP

2C-2D
3D

2D is waiting, double negative option not discussed

---

What's least bad here? Among the options that occur:

3H or 3S - Seems like the only way to get to 3N if that's where we belong, but also seems like fast way to end up in game with 4-3 fit.

4C - If you take "cheapest minor as double negative" to it's logical conclusion, seems like this would be the bid. But we hadn't discussed double-negative (first time we played together), and I've never been in this situation where the cheapest minor is at the 4-level...would that still be the understanding here?

Pass - May be best spot, but could easily be wrong and seems like it will ruin partnership trust.

I had no idea what was best, and in the end made the losing choice...

[Stephen Tu]

If you are playing ch. minor 2nd neg, it's standard to use 3nt as the 2nd neg over diamonds. Bidding a major is a good way to get to a 3-3 fit, let alone 4-3.

3nt here is standard regardless. Yes, it's not great, sometimes you will reach 3nt down from your side when it would make from partner's side. Yes, sometimes one of the majors will be wide open. But if your partner's minor suit oriented 2c openers are up to snuff (10+ tricks supposedly), it's going to make most of the time, and certainly get you a better score on average than anything else you do.

[aguahombre]

Will leave what is "Standard" to the experts on Standard. If the agreements are that 3D is just a 2C opener with diamonds, rather than a launch into asking bids with a mountain ---then I thought normal was next suit=second negative.

It just seems so wrong to bid 3NT from that side of the table. Undiscussed with a good player, I would bid 3H. With my partner, I have a clear 4D bid opposite her 10+ trick hand (showing nothing, which is what I have).

[nigel_k]

I would just try 3♥. If partner raises maybe 3NT was not a good spot anyway.

If you're not playing 2♥ 'double negative' over 2♣, you can bid a 2♥ positive on much weaker hands than other positives because it doesn't obstruct partner's rebid. Therefore 3♥ should be the second negative here anyway, but you would need to discuss it first.

[Mbodell]

Yeah, I don't know what standard is but when I've played cheapest minor rebid is double negative then I've played it 2 different ways, neither what Stephen says is standard.

Option 1: 3♥ is the cheapest bid and hence is the artificial negative.

Option 2: There is no double negative but no matter what I bid next we are no longer in a force and I may pass opener.

I like Option 1 the best and would probably try 3♥ if playing cheapest minor rebid as double negative even if we hadn't talked about this auction as it might well work out, especially when partner doesn't have hearts. I will not expect partner to bid 4♥ with just 3 hearts, but with 4 I expect to be playing the 4-3.

[Stephen Tu]

I guess I should have worded my post better. I think the real "standard" is that there is no 2nd negative over 3d. But I still think the default should be to bid 3nt, not an artificial 3h.

If I have to choose between getting to my 5-3 heart games reliably, and avoiding stupid 4-3 heart games, vs. playing 3nt from the wrong side when responder is very weak, I know for damn sure what I'm going to choose based on frequency. If partner has AK or A(x) alone in the critical suit, it won't matter. If partner has Kx or AQ, if the honor is onside, it didn't matter. If the opps lead the wrong suit, it didn't matter.

And if you are going to lower your standards for 2h positives just to avoid this problem on this auction ala Nigel, you are negatively impacting your slam bidding when responder has hearts for a rare sequence.

[gnasher]

nigel_k, on Aug 12 2010, 12:22 AM, said:

If you're not playing 2♥ 'double negative' over 2♣, you can bid a 2♥ positive on much weaker hands than other positives because it doesn't obstruct partner's rebid. Therefore 3♥ should be the second negative here anyway, but you would need to discuss it first.

That's an interesting idea. It doesn't help only in this sequence - it also saves us from sequences like
2♣-2♦
2♠-3♥

[mike777]

bd71, on Aug 11 2010, 03:35 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

2C-2D
3D

2D is waiting, double negative option not discussed

---

What's least bad here? Among the options that occur:

3H or 3S - Seems like the only way to get to 3N if that's where we belong, but also seems like fast way to end up in game with 4-3 fit.

4C - If you take "cheapest minor as double negative" to it's logical conclusion, seems like this would be the bid. But we hadn't discussed double-negative (first time we played together), and I've never been in this situation where the cheapest minor is at the 4-level...would that still be the understanding here?

Pass - May be best spot, but could easily be wrong and seems like it will ruin partnership trust.

I had no idea what was best, and in the end made the losing choice...

hate 2d whatever it means

[Codo]

3 NT now, what else?

[gwnn]

I'd bid 3NT here but I suspect pass has a higher MP expectancy.

I remember a thread on passing 2♣ on 0-1 hcp and 6 clubs, that was if not overwhelmingly, but significantly +MPEV (and similarly significant IMP underdog).

here is the thread:
http://forums.bridge...wtopic=8557&hl=

there were some bridgebrowser studies or simulations in that thread!!! now they're gone! what's going on?

[kayin801]

I have some fondness for 4♦, since partner couldn't rebid NT some suit is wide open. It sucks but I hate everything from 3♥ to 3NT. The only other bid I would consider is 4♣, but ew.

Please do not pass, it can be hazardous to your health!

[cloa513]

If partner has diamonds and four of major, its better to bid the major after 2C,2D with near to nothing partner partner can rebid 3C, better hand 3D (both without spades), so 3D rebid dislikes major then 3H is poor hand, 3S better hand so your bid is 3H.

[OleBerg]

Off to see the shrink. At §150/hour, he should be able to explain to me, why 3NT is not a big WTP.

[peachy]

Stephen Tu, on Aug 11 2010, 05:33 PM, said:

If you are playing ch. minor 2nd neg, it's standard to use 3nt as the 2nd neg over diamonds. Bidding a major is a good way to get to a 3-3 fit, let alone 4-3.

3nt here is standard regardless. Yes, it's not great, sometimes you will reach 3nt down from your side when it would make from partner's side. Yes, sometimes one of the majors will be wide open. But if your partner's minor suit oriented 2c openers are up to snuff (10+ tricks supposedly), it's going to make most of the time, and certainly get you a better score on average than anything else you do.

I thought it was standard to use the cheapest bid on 3-level as "double negative" so when a minor is not available on the 3-level, it is 3H. Of course I am not in a position to say what is standard and I don't know how you can be either, but if you are, link me to some references that say 3NT is "standard". Seems like a bad idea for the yarboro to be declarer in 3NT anyway so lacking agreements, I would bid 3H.

[bluecalm]

I don't get the talk about breaking partnership trust etc.
If we pass we just try to make the best call available in our opinion. Partner should/will understand it. I don't understand why he should stop trusting us after such pass.

I am not saying pass is any good here, just arguments should revolve around the call being good or bad and not about some abstract partnership trust or what not.
I am sure any intelligent partner will be happy to see we are doing our best and that we are not afraid of non-standard calls if they are the best.

[Stephen Tu]

peachy, on Aug 13 2010, 02:28 PM, said:

I thought it was standard to use the cheapest bid on 3-level as "double negative" so when a minor is not available on the 3-level, it is 3H.  Of course I am not in a position to say what is standard and I don't know how you can be either, but if you are, link me to some references that say 3NT is "standard". Seems like a bad idea for the yarboro to be declarer in 3NT anyway so lacking agreements, I would bid 3H.

Bridge World Standard:
"After a two-diamond response and a natural simple new-suit rebid by opener, responder’s cheapest minor-suit bid through three diamonds is a double negative"

And they say nothing about 3♥ or using hearts artificially, basically there is no double negative afterwards. Which is consistent with bidding 3nt here, 3nt is necessarily going to be wide ranging and not promising double neg since you are going to play there a lot.


Eddie Kantar:
"When you have been dealt a miserable hand (0-3 HCP), your first obligation after your obligatory 2D response is to let partner in on this terrible secret. You do this by by bidding “cheaper minor” called a 'double negative'. After partner rebids 2H or 2S, bid 3C. This 3C bid does not show clubs, in fact it shows nothing. It means you have a nothing hand. Had partner rebid 3C over your 2D response, 3D is your double negative. If partner rebids 3D over 2D, there is no double negative. Good luck. "

Modern Bridge Convetions, Root & Pavlicek:
"Cheaper minor rebid, or 3nt over 3♦ (by responder) shows 0 to 4 ..."
[example of 3nt over 3♦ with a 3334 1-count]
"This is a clumsy sequence, to be sure, but it is the most practical solution"

Quote

Seems like a bad idea for the yarboro to be declarer in 3NT anyway so lacking agreements, I would bid 3H.

Yes, it's less than optimal for the yarb to declare 3nt. It's worse to get to 4-3 heart fits that go down when 3nt was making from the "wrong" side. It's worse to not be able to get to your normal 5-3/6-3 heart fits when it's the best/only game because opener can't raise hearts on 3 since you don't show hearts. This includes many times when responder isn't totally broke, but wasn't strong enough/ didn't meet your suit quality standards for responding in hearts directly over 2♣.

Passing when partner has announced 10 tricks and will make 9 tricks in NT by his lonesome more often than not seems really anti-percentage to me.

If you are playing Kokish to handle huge balanced hands, then opener can bid 2c-2d-3nt on hands with a running diamond suit and positional stoppers to protect.

Also of course if responder has a yarb that has better prospects for diamonds (short elsewhere, some trumps) he can bid 5d instead of 3nt. And opener who fancies his chances in 5d (or 5c) better opposite responder's wide range 0-6 3nt no 5cd M is allowed to pull 3nt of course.