[TimG]

pirate22, on Aug 13 2010, 09:09 AM, said:

Ok Gwnn:)--we join in with Physcotic x first time it goes then  1ht--X!--p--2cl
                                                                                        2hts-now what Gwnn?
x now?????????? or pass or raise partner?

what is the known factor by the 2clubber  has got/not got?

We know the 2♣ bidder does not have 1065--4--KQ52--KQ1062.

[benlessard]

I play penalty-ish double more often than regular partnership and i play penalty here but i believe that responsive is better or at least as good here, because the opener cannot be "surprised", he know its likely partner can have no entry and possibly a stiff H or no H at all and hes expecting H not to break so since he not under pressure he has no reason to strech to bid 2H.

While if it goes

1Nt(weak)---(2S)----X

the overcaller is under pressure here so he ll often strecth to bid (reasonnably expecting a doubleton S and some points) and can often be nailed successfully.

Each time a bidder can reasonably expect something from his partner he can be nailed because the partner may not have the goods and give no trumps support. Nailing a bidder who expect nothing form his partner will need extreme distribution.

Here even 6 baby H in the south hand might not change a thing, 6 trumps + side ace for down 1, while hands with points and 3244,2344,3433 are occuring often.

[BudH]

jdonn, on Aug 9 2010, 02:48 PM, said:

I don't see why this should be different from the multitude of other situations where if we have a penalty double hand we just pass, and most of the time partner can reopen for us and sometimes he can't and we collect an undoubled penalty, but if we have the other type of hand then we badly need the double to be able to show it (and may collect some good penalties anyway when partner judges to pass it).

Yes, but there are plenty of hands where the doubler stretched to double the first time and will never be able to double the second time to allow for a penalty pass.

But I agree the double behind the opener showing "cards" comes up more often. As long as it shows a clear majority of high cards for your side without much heart shortness, double should be OK.

[FrancesHinden]

I play this as take-out, and have done for ages.

Technically I think it's right to play it as penalties against weak players (who like to bid again here on poor suits) and take-out against good players (who generally have a good suit). But then I decided it was too difficult to have that as an agreement, and we'd just beat the weak players some other way.