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Round 1, Board 4 Forum bidding Contest

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2010-July-25, 22:28

Scoring: MP

Board 4. Bidding Script: North will open or overcall in 's as cheaply as possible, but not above 3. He will keep bidding 's until 3 is reached. If north bids 2 it will be south who carries on to 3 if necessary. If west or east end up in 4's or higher (in any denomination) south will double.

Notes: When played in real world, most seemed to think east is a little heavy for 1NT, no doubt due to the increased lighter and lighter nature of the 1NT overcall. The auction should be fairly straight foward with a 1NT overcall. West will try transfer to 2, and East will probably pass over 3 by north, so that west will be in position to take the push to 3.

Scores: 3ew = 10, 3xns=4, 3ns=2, 3=2, 4x=1

3W 10
4xW 9
3E 1
3N 3
4xx W 1
3x N 2
4x E 1
3H E 1

4Sx E bluecalm/redds
4Hxx W Codo-Fluffy
4Hx W peachy/lg62
4HX W mbodell - javabean
4Hx W CanadaGrl/Gerardo
4Hx W zasanya/ravia6
4Hx W kristen33/jillybean
4Hx W East4Evil/sohcahtoa
4Hx W ant590 - crayzeejim
4HX W cascade kermit
4Hx W sallyally/joylson
3H W tlgoodwin/timg
3H W olegru - driver733
3H W gnasher/catch22
3H W helene_t-agusaris
3H W jlall/hanp
3H W karlson/threenobob
3H W tylere / bid_em_up
3H W Hrothgar/Free
3H W rogerClee/cherdano
3H W mohitz/akjq
3H E Flycycle/Wackojack
3Cx N elianna/awm
3C x N kfay/jchiu
3C N jdonn/gib
3C N lobowolf/bkjswan
3C N Siegmund/MSchmahl
BA 0 j0i/gwnn
NA 0 Tomi2-JHDW
NA 0 Vampyr/Lamford
--Ben--

#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-July-25, 23:11

I'm not sure why 4X scores any points at all here, as it seems like a sure bottom board (-200 if you're lucky).

I'd also note that 3X is a top any time the contract fails, which I'd rate as rather more than the 20% odds which the current scoring seems to rate it at.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#3 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2010-July-25, 23:40

awm, on Jul 25 2010, 09:11 PM, said:

I'm not sure why 4X scores any points at all here, as it seems like a sure bottom board (-200 if you're lucky).

I'd also note that 3X is a top any time the contract fails, which I'd rate as rather more than the 20% odds which the current scoring seems to rate it at.

Well, your two comments point out an inconsistency if 3X makes anything close to half the time, then 4X is unlikely to be a bottom (I don't think -3 is that likely).

Also, if 9 pairs in the contest ended up in 4X, it seems the -200 (or -500) will not be that lonely or uncommon a score. Bad yes, worse than 10%, no way.
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#4 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 00:05

The hand in the movie for NS made heart contracts look bad.

I thought the 3 rebid was reasonably frisky with the hand shown. Bidding 3 with that hand is offering 200 or more reasonably often.

That makes the heart contracts look bad.

If north has all of the aces which I feel is more consistent with the bidding then 4 is a much better contract and is very unlikely to be doubled.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#5 User is offline   JavaBean 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 00:42

For what it's worth, 4 was not doubled by the operator at our table. We obviously aren't running anywhere and wouldn't be happy if we had, but it's a bit odd to not be offered the chance.
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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 02:51

I must be really stupid, because I knew Codo had Kxxxxx and I bid 4 because RHO must have the 3 aces after LHO's pass first round and he is not gonna lead a diamond, on a trump or club lead 4 is a good spot.
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#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 03:03

BTW: south didn't bid 3 at our table

1-X-ps-1
2-X-ps-3
ps-4


Not sure what the meaning of carries on to 3 is.
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#8 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 03:59

Fluffy, on Jul 26 2010, 05:03 AM, said:

BTW: south didn't bid 3 at our table

1-X-ps-1
2-X-ps-3
ps-4


Not sure what the meaning of carries on to 3 is.

It says 3 if neccessary. I wondered why so many pairs bid 4 over their partner's sign-off in 3...

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 05:04

At our table, South bid 3 over the double of 2.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 05:29

Why is 3H by E worth only 1 point and 3H by W 10? It should rather be the other way around imo... Or is it a typo? Anyway we got 10 :)
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#11 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 05:42

Fluffy, on Jul 26 2010, 10:03 AM, said:

BTW: south didn't bid 3 at our table

1-X-ps-1
2-X-ps-3
ps-4


Not sure what the meaning of carries on to 3 is.

inquiry, on Jul 26 2010, 05:28 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

Board 4. Bidding Script: North will open or overcall in 's as cheaply as possible, but not above 3. He will keep bidding 's until 3 is reached. If north bids 2 it will be south who carries on to 3 if necessary. If west or east end up in 4's or higher (in any denomination) south will double.

Notes: When played in real world, most seemed to think east is a little heavy for 1NT, no doubt due to the increased lighter and lighter nature of the 1NT overcall. The auction should be fairly straight foward with a 1NT overcall.  West will try transfer to 2, and East will probably pass over 3 by north, so that west will be in position to take the push to 3.

Hmm ,the diagram above says West is dealer, so we will assume a pass before 1.
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#12 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 06:30

Free, on Jul 26 2010, 06:29 AM, said:

Why is 3H by E worth only 1 point and 3H by W 10? It should rather be the other way around imo... Or is it a typo? Anyway we got 10 :)

That's a frequency chart, not a score chart.
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#13 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 06:33

TimG, on Jul 26 2010, 01:30 PM, said:

Free, on Jul 26 2010, 06:29 AM, said:

Why is 3H by E worth only 1 point and 3H by W 10?  It should rather be the other way around imo... Or is it a typo? Anyway we got 10  :)

That's a frequency chart, not a score chart.

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#14 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 08:39

I don't get the scoring method.
3 is normal contract and there is no way it would score a top at MP's.
It seems that some hands are scored by one method and other by different one.

Any sane pair (not us) should have no trouble staying out of 4 so bidding 3 would net you 60% board - tying with all sane pairs, beating all the idiots (like us) :)
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#15 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2010-July-26, 10:25

bluecalm, on Jul 26 2010, 09:39 AM, said:

I don't get the scoring method.
3 is normal contract and there is no way it would score a top at MP's.
It seems that some hands are scored by one method and other by different one.

Any sane pair (not us) should have no trouble staying out of 4 so bidding 3 would net you 60% board - tying with all sane pairs, beating all the idiots (like us) :)

In this contest, 11 pairs stopped in 3 while 10 pairs reached 4. So, I don't think your premise that "any sane pair should have no trouble staying out of 4" is correct.
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#16 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2010-July-27, 14:27

awm, on Jul 26 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

I'm not sure why 4X scores any points at all here, as it seems like a sure bottom board (-200 if you're lucky).

I'd also note that 3X is a top any time the contract fails, which I'd rate as rather more than the 20% odds which the current scoring seems to rate it at.

Not entirely sure what to make of suggested scoring changes here.

For awn's comment that 4 should get a zero, 4x scores better than both 4xx and 4x, both of which were played in this competition, in addition to 9 pairs playing in 4x tying each other. Maybe I didn't score it high enough!!! I was thinking along the lines that -200 is a zero-ish. Furthermore 4x will outscore 3x making, so I could see a counter arguement that it needs to be bumped up just a little.

I agree 3x is a top or bottom. I thought 3x was making somewhere between 30 and 37% of the time. If it was a percentage points lower than 30%, it would be a 3, if it was higher than 37% it would be a 5 or higher. I thought this was a fair placement for that contract.

As for why a 10 for a reasonably normal 3, I have two answers to that. I tried to make maximum on each hand at least a 10. See the hand where everyone bid 4. That is probably not the best thing to do, but I confused myself initially by picking out hands based on specific NS hands, but that isn't fair way to do this. Round 2 will avoid this flaw in hand selection. Still on the given results. Having said that, if we matchpoint the 26 boards here, giving a top to the 3, we find it earns 21.5 out of 26 possible matchpoints. As a percentage that is 82.7, and on a 12 point scale that works out to be 9.9. I don't calculate the matchpoints this way, however, I just used it to check teh arguement that heart part-score should be average on this hand.

So for the moment, the scores are staying were they are, but open questions are:

Should 4x get a higher score?
Should 3x get a higher score? Should it get a lower score? I will try some simulations.
--Ben--

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