[Cascade]

2/1 One Round Force

Scoring: MP

Uncontested
1♠ 2♣
2♦ ?

---

If this is not clear then what is the minimum change in either direction to make this a clear cut action?

If it is clear what is the minimum change to make it clear to make the alternative action?

[JLOGIC]

So 3C is non forcing right? I don't understand the problem, looks perfect to me I have 6 good clubs and an invite!

[hanp]

I didn't get it either, this is a terrible hand for playing 2/1 GF and a perfect hand for your system. 2C, and then 3C unless partner bids 2H.

[Cascade]

Just wondering if Matchpoint considerations would entice anyone into 2NT?

And if not how much worse the clubs would need to be or how much better the heart stopper would need to be before you chose 2NT.

I also was wondering if stiff spade and doubleton diamond would make any difference.

[JLOGIC]

If we are going to end in a partial, I would much much rather play in 3C than 2N. It is good in MP to go plus, and I would rather not go down in 2N opposite short clubs. They are likely to lead a heart against NT and kill my entry. Even if I have 2 entries (partner has heart help), I will need luck in clubs, and I'll have entry problems.

If they choose to lead a diamond, that will often be right for them also since they can probably take diamond tricks.

Also, bidding 3C has the advantage of describing our hand. There are some minimum hands with Ax of clubs that will pass 2N but bid 3N over 3C for example (because Ax of clubs opposite a 6 card invite is very strong, especially if combined with 2 other aces for example).

If we have a slam, starting with 3C will definitely be better.

And finally, I don't know your system but if partner bids 3D over 2N is that forcing? If it's NF, 2N will get 3D from partner with a weak 5-5 rather than being able to play 3C. Probably you play this as forcing though so it's not an issue (sorry I am a n00b on 2/1 not GF also!)

[hanp]

Aha, I missed the title so didn't see the 2NT suggestion.

You'd have to change the club suit dramatically before I'd change my mind. With 2 spades and 1 diamond and a poor club suit, perhaps 2S becomes a consideration. I don't know what that can be a doubleton in your system.

[Cascade]

JLOGIC, on Jul 16 2010, 11:50 AM, said:

sorry I am a n00b on 2/1 not GF also!

You live such a sheltered life.

[JLOGIC]

Cascade, on Jul 15 2010, 06:44 PM, said:

And if not how much worse the clubs would need to be or how much better the heart stopper would need to be before you chose 2NT.

For me the heart stopper is a non issue. When I have a good but not solid 6 card suit and a misfit I would prefer to play in a partial in that suit rather than 2N.

If the clubs were worse and we had more values overall/scattered, I would be much more inclined to bid 2N because:

A ) A 6-1 fit with a bad 6 card suit sucks and could have 3 or 4 trump losers
B ) We are likely to have sources of tricks elsewhere if I have some help in partners suit, so it's not like 2N will be dependent on the clubs

I think common sense is that when you show an invitational 1 suiter, you have a good suit playable opposite a stiff.

So if you changed my hand to x AJ9x Qx KTxxxx I would bid 2N and not be happy about it.

If you changed it to Qx AJ9x x KTxxxx I would bid 2S if that was possible in this system (again I don't know).

In general playing 2N on hands like this is not something I strive for.

[Cascade]

What happens if we rotate the suits:

Scoring: MP

Uncontested
1♠ 2♦
2♥ ?

---

Do you treat this any differently since partner with a normal 5=4=2=2 or 5=4=1=3 with extra values will not be able to effectively investigate 3NT?

[hanp]

6-4 with KQ109xx man, show some respect!

[Siegmund]

I think it's very close to the border. I have been known to go either way on this type of hand. Bidding 3C misses a lot of making 3NTs when opener has a little extra but also misses a lot of failing 2NT when he doesn't. How much change to make 3C 100% clear... removing the heart stopper?

[Cascade]

@hanp (since there has been an intervening post)

Ok make the suit a little weaker.

I am just trying to investigate where people think the boundaries should be.

The original hand wasn't actually my hand. I wasn't even playing the event but was asked to comment on a 2NT bid with those cards. So as I said I was just trying to guage where the boundary would be between 2NT and rebidding your minor (at Matchpoints).

[aguahombre]

yep, with the given conditions, 2c then 3c seems fine.

This hand is not terrible for GF 2/1, however. The same effect comes of forcing NT, then 3C/2D ---defined as invite strength with 6 clubs. Weaker hands should take a diff course ---either planning to take the 2S pref after 1NT or defining an immediate 3C as 6-9 if the spades are shorter.

[inquiry]

My hand is worth less on my second bid than it did on my first. So I bid 3♣ and very glad I am playing a method where this is now non-forcong.

[pooltuna]

JLOGIC, on Jul 15 2010, 05:58 PM, said:

So 3C is non forcing right? I don't understand the problem, looks perfect to me I have 6 good clubs and an invite!

you are not reading the post closely enough. The OP wants to know which of 3♣ or 2NT a clear choice? And the answer you gave is that 3♣ is obv (which is also my opinion). Next question was what do I have to change to make 2NT the obv choice and for me that would be add at least 2HCP to the hand and reduce the number of clubs to produce a more balanced hand.