[kfay]

Scoring: IMP

(P)-P-(3♥)-?

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What's your scheme to show these?

[PhantomSac]

5S obv. No this doesn't ask for a control, it just shows a hand between 4S and 6S. I might go down, and partner won't bid slam completely accurately (since he doesn't know the difference between the CQ and the DQ), but this feels best.

[Fluffy]

4NT then 5♠ this should be the invitatinal.

[gwnn]

I like 5S but I feel like I'm a little too strong for that. However, bidding 6 does sound a little weird with 50% of all aces missing. Anyway, I really hope nobody suggests x.

[aguahombre]

Cmon, Kevin --gimme the spade 8 instead of the 6, so I won't pull a "Barry Crane" at trick two and lose two spade tricks.

[PhantomSac]

Fluffy, on Mar 3 2010, 04:28 PM, said:

4NT then 5♠ this should be the invitatinal.

So how do you bid A x AKJxx AKQxxx after 3H 4N p 5C p ?

4N shows the minors, and later bidding 5S does not undo that.

[jdonn]

Yes 5♠ invitational to 6 should be wtp, at least for people who know what it means.

[aguahombre]

your cat mated with a rabbit?

[ggwhiz]

Quote

4NT then 5♠ this should be the invitatinal.

Quote

So how do you bid A x AKJxx AKQxxx after 3H 4N p 5C p


4N shows the minors, and later bidding 5S does not undo that.

In my partnership, 4 hearts shows the minors, well any 2-suiter and I will get that across after removing a 4 spade bid. Same thing over 3S when I bid 4S.

4N is straight old fashioned Blackwood and that's what I would gamble here.

If pard shows one, I would close my eyes and bid slam though. Too many ways and too much time to dispose of a couple of diamond losers to put pard under the pressure of the final decision.

[Pict]

4NT Ace asking. If not allowed to play that, flip a coin - heads 4, tails 6.

[PhantomSac]

Hmm if I didn't play 4N as minors I would play it as natural probably, 4N ace asking seems very weird. Does it ever come up?

4H showing any 2 suits seems like it would hinder your slam bidding a lot, for the gain of ace asking it doesn't seem worth it.

[ggwhiz]

All of these are extreemely rare but we are more comfortable with gambling on a way to get rid of 2 little diamonds (on this example) than not being able to ask pard for aces.

Many of the 2-suiters can pick which way to go, ie.

xx, - , AKQxx, AKQJxx can bid 4H over 3H and take their best guess. I like a non-spade lead if we can get pard on play.

x, x, AKJxx, AKQJxx can ask for aces and shoot 6C if they find one and/or feel like it.

Or they can cue 4H and park it in 5 of their best minor suit fit with a card (Q of clubs?) less.

ps. What does 4H show otherwise?

[PhantomSac]

ggwhiz, on Mar 3 2010, 05:41 PM, said:

ps.  What does 4H show otherwise?

Spades + minor with 4N = C+D is quite normal over 3H AFAIK**. I don't think 4H S+minor is unusual/rare at all. Minors is less common but also not rare.

**Yes I'm aware some people play NLM!

[Fluffy]

PhantomSac, on Mar 3 2010, 09:39 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Mar 3 2010, 04:28 PM, said:

4NT then 5♠ this should be the invitatinal.

So how do you bid A x AKJxx AKQxxx after 3H 4N p 5C p ?

4N shows the minors, and later bidding 5S does not undo that.

want the same argument for ♠AKQ10xxxx ♥Qx ♦AKQ ♣-?

5♠ shows lack of heart control you cannot undo that lol.


Just for the reconrd, I have no agreements on what 4NT+5♠ shows, but I beleive partner won't have many difficulties figuring out even if I can have both hands.

[PhantomSac]

Fluffy, on Mar 3 2010, 05:58 PM, said:

5♠ shows lack of heart control you cannot undo that lol.

well I guess it must be true then!

[kenrexford]

Something doesn't feel right. I think I'm going passive with 4-only-spades.

[ggwhiz]

You are boxed in with big hands like these period and some gambling is usually required. Just pick your poison and be happy they don't happen very often.

Any agreement(ish) does the job fine. You can call it a "system" fix, survive the post-mortem and pick up some 4 triple 10 counts to restore your sanity.

[kfay]

PhantomSac, on Mar 3 2010, 05:46 PM, said:

ggwhiz, on Mar 3 2010, 05:41 PM, said:

ps.  What does 4H show otherwise?

Spades + minor with 4N = C+D is quite normal over 3H AFAIK**. I don't think 4H S+minor is unusual/rare at all. Minors is less common but also not rare.

**Yes I'm aware some people play NLM!

Have this agreement also but just occurred to me that I haven't discussed 4NT over 4♥... I assume it must be natural. Agree?

[gwnn]

I would take 3H-4H-p-4NT 100% as asking for my minor, IDK, I am quite simplistic here maybe..

[gnasher]

What does a direct 5♥ show? I think it should be this hand, so that 5♠ can deny a heart control.

Regarding continuations after 4NT-5m, 5♥ is a grand-slam try for the minor with first-round heart control, so wouldn't 5NT cover all your other grand-slam tries? You can hardly be missing another ace in addition to not having heart control.

The trouble with these sequences where they preempt and we have a slam try is that every sequence is different, and they rarely come up, so it's really hard to identify commonalities.