[Rossoneri]

An interesting situation in the Coventry Pairs League tonight: I was defending 5♣ and halfway through the play I ended up hiding a club from view while I was defending. Now declarer is in a 5-2 fit and draws 3 rounds of trump, while I discard a low ♠ on the 3rd round not realising I have a club hidden. Now declarer plays a 4th club and I now realise I have a club, so I call director and since the revoke has not been established as neither partner nor I have played to this trick yet, my low spade becomes a major penalty card. Question is, is declarer now allowed to retract his play of a 4th club?

[Vampyr]

Rossoneri, on Feb 26 2010, 02:53 AM, said:

Question is, is declarer now allowed to retract his play of a 4th club?

No, declarer's card is played, but the director will restore equity if the play of the 4th round of clubs has damaged declarer's score.

[blackshoe]

I don't know, Stephanie. Law 62C1 says

Quote

Each member of the non-offending side may withdraw and return to his hand any card he may have played after the revoke but before attention was drawn to it (see Law 16D).

It doesn't say in there that the "card he may have played" was to the same trick.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on Feb 26 2010, 03:45 AM, said:

I don't know, Stephanie. Law 62C1 says

Quote

Each member of the non-offending side may withdraw and return to his hand any card he may have played after the revoke but before attention was drawn to it (see Law 16D).

It doesn't say in there that the "card he may have played" was to the same trick.

I had assumed that that was what was meant, but maybe not.

[RMB1]

Vampyr, on Feb 26 2010, 03:01 AM, said:

I had assumed that that was what was meant, but maybe not.

I am sure Law 62 C may apply to the subsequent trick.
For instance, once the revoke has been corrected, declarer may not be on lead.

[Vampyr]

RMB1, on Feb 26 2010, 05:04 AM, said:

Vampyr, on Feb 26 2010, 03:01 AM, said:

I had assumed that that was what was meant, but maybe not.

I am sure Law 62 C may apply to the subsequent trick.
For instance, once the revoke has been corrected, declare may not be on lead.

OK. The reason I had thought that this was probably not the case is because of 62C2; one must wonder how many tricks the play can be rewound. Or does "any card" mean a single card?

[RMB1]

Vampyr, on Feb 26 2010, 04:16 AM, said:

OK. The reason I had thought that this was probably not the case is because of 62C2; one must wonder how many tricks the play can be rewound. Or does "any card" mean a single card?

I think only one subsequent partial trick can be unwound. Once the offending side have played to the subsequent trick, the revoke will be established and will not be corrected. So the first subsequent trick can not be completed before the revoke is corrected, so it unlikely that declarer has played cards to later tricks.

[Vampyr]

RMB1, on Feb 26 2010, 05:32 AM, said:

Vampyr, on Feb 26 2010, 04:16 AM, said:

OK. The reason I had thought that this was probably not the case is because of 62C2; one must wonder how many tricks the play can be rewound. Or does "any card" mean a single card?

I think only one subsequent partial trick can be unwound. Once the offending side have played to the subsequent trick, the revoke will be established and will not be corrected. So the first subsequent trick can not be completed before the revoke is corrected, so it unlikely that declarer has played cards to later tricks.

1. Each member of the non-offending side may withdraw and return to his hand any card he may have played after the revoke but before attention was drawn to it (see Law 16D).

I don't see any mention here of the revoke being corrected, nor any indication that the Law does not apply after the revoke is established. Except for the heading of the Law, which, it says in the introduction, does not limit the application of the Law.

[pran]

Vampyr, on Feb 26 2010, 05:55 AM, said:

RMB1, on Feb 26 2010, 05:32 AM, said:

Vampyr, on Feb 26 2010, 04:16 AM, said:

OK. The reason I had thought that this was probably not the case is because of 62C2; one must wonder how many tricks the play can be rewound. Or does "any card" mean a single card?

I think only one subsequent partial trick can be unwound. Once the offending side have played to the subsequent trick, the revoke will be established and will not be corrected. So the first subsequent trick can not be completed before the revoke is corrected, so it unlikely that declarer has played cards to later tricks.

1. Each member of the non-offending side may withdraw and return to his hand any card he may have played after the revoke but before attention was drawn to it (see Law 16D).

I don't see any mention here of the revoke being corrected, nor any indication that the Law does not apply after the revoke is established. Except for the heading of the Law, which, it says in the introduction, does not limit the application of the Law.

1. Each member of the non-offending side may withdraw and return to his hand any card he may have played after the revoke but before attention was drawn to it (see Law 16D).

Again we have a law that cannot be applied literally and uncritically.

Except for the heading which is not part of the law, this law literally allows the players on the non-offending side to retract any card they have played after a revoke but before attention was drawn to it, even if such attention was drawn several tricks later (in which case the revoke of course was established long ago).

The intended law is clear: Law 62C applies to cards played subsequent to the revoke (possibly in a subsequent trick) whenever (and only when) the revoke must be corrected as specified in Law 62B.

[blackshoe]

I have no problem with discussing whatever failings in the laws people perceive, and possible ways to fix those failings — in the appropriate forum. This isn't it. I think I'll move the last few posts to the laws change forum.


Edit: some posts have been moved to Fixing Law 62 in the "Changing Laws and Regulations" forum.

This post has been edited by blackshoe: 2010-February-26, 16:27