[Jlall]

gnasher, on Feb 22 2010, 04:27 AM, said:

Another way of looking at it: what would East have done with xx KQxx AJxx Kxx? He'd have bid exactly as he did, expecting West to bid 3NT on any hand with a spade stop. I don't think it works to bid such different hands the same way.

I think if playing walsh style bidding 1D with this hand is a mistake, and will actually cause you to lose room as well as leak information more often.

For example after 1C 1H 1N you can just bid 3N. After 1C 1D 1N you will have to check back for a heart fit.

After 1C 1red 2C, you'd rather have started with 1H, as you can now bid 2D, and if partner bids 2H you can bid 3C and you are off to a good start and are lower than you would be after 1C 1D 2C 2H.

Also it will be easier to get to a 4-3 heart fit if necessary having started with 1H, though it could be possible even if you start with 1D it will be less straightforward, especially since a later heart bid by you might just be third suit forcing.

There are some deals where partner is something like 2245 especially that 5D might be better than 3N when we have no spade stopper, but even then the best I can come up with is something like xx Ax KQxx AJxxx which is close to a 1N opener... anything weaker like taking away the CJ and we'd be better off hoping they don't lead a spade vs 3N since 5D is no play. IMO it's a narrow target, and it's worth paying off to in order to just be able to bid 1C 1H 1N 3N a lot or 1C 1H 2H *whatever ask* 4H.

[Jlall]

All that said I agree with the basic premise that when partner shows 3-6 in the minors, and you're loaded in the minors with a double fit, you should play in a minor.

[quiddity]

Assuming 2H was game-forcing (and since it was a reverse I think it should be), I would bid 2N with the west hand. Spades are well-stopped; why highlight a bad 3-card diamond holding? And yet the bid would probably wrong-side 3NT since the stoppers are not positional - is this a big enough reason to prefer 3D?

[PhantomSac]

quiddity, on Feb 22 2010, 03:38 PM, said:

Assuming 2H was game-forcing (and since it was a reverse I think it should be), I would bid 2N with the west hand. Spades are well-stopped; why highlight a bad 3-card diamond holding? And yet the bid would probably wrong-side 3NT since the stoppers are not positional - is this a big enough reason to prefer 3D?

You have 3 card support, a stiff, and AK A for partner. You have no positional values at all, and a great hand for 5 or 6 diamonds.

I mean seriously look at this hand. 5 of a minor is excellent. 3N from your side is basically a disaster especially vs non bad opps who are likely to try to lead a heart through on this auction. Partners hand is really normal. That should say something. I think it is really poor to suppress your support here in order to grab NT.

[quiddity]

well.. ok.
Maybe it's a mis-evaluation but I don't see this hand as being great for 5 or 6 diamonds. Partner is likely to have waste in hearts, we're likely to have waste in the black suits, and our trumps suck.

Also, I don't think partner's hand is really normal. He has 3 card support (to the K!) for our 6-card minor, and just Kxx in hearts. He would almost certainly bid 3C over 2N, we would bid 3D and we might still reach our minor suit contract. Meanwhile it doesn't seem likely that we can get him to bid NT when it's right, given our spade holding.

[PhantomSac]

quiddity, on Feb 22 2010, 05:13 PM, said:

Meanwhile it doesn't seem likely that we can get him to bid NT when it's right, given our spade holding.

Bidding 2S would accomplish that, if you don't want to raise diamonds I think that's much better. Admittedly it sounds more like Axx of spades, maybe partner will work out that your hand is antipositional because of your hearts and not your spades though, especially if you get to bid 3D next.

I guess we will agree to disagree that partner would bid 3C over 2N, to me he is 5332 at this point and you have just bid NT, I would not expect you to have a stiff ever (maybe with 7 bad clubs and a double spade stop) unless it was in diamonds, and I wouldn't see much point in investigating further with balanced hands (or stiff opp AQJxx) and stoppers everywhere.

I don't see why Kxx is such a strange holding, it could also be AJx or something that is much more suitable for suit play. I dont think 2H shows heart length, partner is just showing some value there and he has no other forcing bid. To me it is very natural to support partner with support for his suit and a stiff and very prime/suit oriented hands. If he wants to find out about a spade stopper there is still room to ask.