[whidbey]

I few years ago on this forum a Precision like system was discussed where the opening 2D bid showed 6+D, no 4 card major, and 11-15. A key part of this approach used 1D-1S-2m to promise 4 hearts and 5+ in the minor suit, while 1D-1M-1NT promised both minors (at least 5/4). What is the best way to continue after the 2D opener using this approach?

[Siegmund]

I am experimenting with just such a system right now. I am using a mix of 1-under and 2-under transfers in response to both 2C and 2D:

2D over 2C= hearts (6+ if weak, 5+ if strong; completing transfer shows a misfitting minimum)
2H=spades (6+ if weak, 5+ if strong; completing transfer shows a misfitting minimum)
2S=asks opener if min/max, invites him to show a feature. Usually aiming for 3NT from the right side.
2N over 2C= diamonds (opener rebids 3C to refuse diamonds, 3D+ to accept them)
2N over 2D= clubs (completing transfer shows misfitting minimum)
3C over 2D= hearts (opener rebids 3D to refuse hearts, 3H+ to accept them)

I am confident that 2D/2H as transfers is ideal over 2C; I am less confident that it is ideal over 2D since hearts don't get introduced until so high.

[mike777]

whidbey, on 2011-December-28, 13:41, said:

I few years ago on this forum a Precision like system was discussed where the opening 2D bid showed 6+D, no 4 card major, and 11-15. A key part of this approach used 1D-1S-2m to promise 4 hearts and 5+ in the minor suit, while 1D-1M-1NT promised both minors (at least 5/4). What is the best way to continue after the 2D opener using this approach?

this sort of sounds like me.


It is called the Simplifed Club by Larry Weiss.

Really more based on a combination of ideas from Roman and Neopolitan Club not Precision.


2d is one suited hand 11-17 could have a very very weak 4 card club suit but rare.

One level bids are indeed canape often but not 100% of the time but they do promise two suits 100% of the time.

follow ups to 2d openings are:
new suit by responder F1 and about7+ if a major tends to deny a fit.

2nt is ogust

3c requires another trick

3d is around 6-8

2h and 2s openers are the same 11-16, one suited.

I have about 5 pages of further follow ups if you have questions.


btw 2c opener is a roman type bid 3 suited, not precision style. One suited club hands are opened 2nt or 3c depending on range

btw2

1d=1h or 1h=1s is a weakish relay, does not promise h or spades but you may show them with rebid..

[straube]

2H-GF relay, symmetric responses
.....2S-4 clubs
.....etc-resolves single-suited shapes
2S-GI with at least one 5-cd major
.....responses show min, max and 3-cd major suit fragments
2N-constructive or GI with diamond tolerance
.....3C-game try
3C-GI with 5+ clubs and no diamond tolerance
3D-to play
other (including 3N)-splinters in support of diamonds

[wclass___]

I would definitely add 5♦4♣ to this bid, because just like 6♦ these are quite rubbish hands that don't want to go slow. If you go slow then opponents will eat up your bidding space by bidding majors anyway.

Well you have preempted yourself and you will obviously suffer a bit in uncontested auctions:

I would always play 2♠ as NF, just like 2♣-2♠.

2♥ is somewhat on the edge, well relay is probably best. I wouldn't go for exact shape (read as catch up in slam bidding), but rather for finding appropriate level and strain.

2N natural invite
3♣=5♥+F1 probably.

[whidbey]

This is in the context of
1C=16+,
1D (may be as short as 1)
1H/1S=11-15,
1NT=11-15 balanced,
2C=11-15 with 6+ GOOD clubs, may have a 4 card major (Hamway response structure)
2D=11-15 with 6+ GOOD diamonds, may NOT have a 4 card major
2H=Flannery
2S=weak 2
2N=20-21

I'd be interested in your thoughts about our initial ideas. We are thinking of the following structure after this 2D:

2H=INV - opener can pass with a minimum and 2 or 3 card support
2S=INV - opener can pass with a minimum and 2 or 3 card support, otherwise:
2NT=natural, Max (probably with 2 card support)
3C=Max, club values or length, looking for 3NT (worried about OM)
3D=NF
3OM=double stopper, looking for 3NT (worried about clubs)
3NT=to play
3M=min with 3 card support
4M=Max with support
2NT=Forcing, asking bid
3C= Max, club values or length
3D=all minimums
3H=Max, heart values
3S=Max, spade values
3NT=solid diamonds
3C=Forcing, 6+ clubs
3D=less than inv
3H=GF, 6+
3S=GF, 6+

[straube]

I'm pretty sure that whatever meaning you give 2H and 2S that both bids should be forcing.

[pat260z]

whidbey, on 2011-December-28, 13:41, said:

I few years ago on this forum a Precision like system was discussed where the opening 2D bid showed 6+D, no 4 card major, and 11-15. A key part of this approach used 1D-1S-2m to promise 4 hearts and 5+ in the minor suit, while 1D-1M-1NT promised both minors (at least 5/4). What is the best way to continue after the 2D opener using this approach?

We open 4 cd majors and open with longer minor if one available thus 1D then Maj = at least 5 in the minor and 4 in the Major

[whidbey]

straube, on 2011-December-28, 17:42, said:

I'm pretty sure that whatever meaning you give 2H and 2S that both bids should be forcing.

Yes, I think you're right. We'll change that.

[PrecisionL]

straube, on 2011-December-28, 17:42, said:

I'm pretty sure that whatever meaning you give 2H and 2S that both bids should be forcing.

For Matchpoint Pairs, do NOT make 2♥ & 2♠ replies to an opening 2♦ bid as forcing, they should be N.F. because playing in the right suit at pairs is critical. We play them as N.F. but opener can raise with a good hand and fit.

Use 2NT as all G.I. hands or better, 3♣ rebid is all minimums, another response is G.F. and maximum.

It is great to use transfers over 2♣ openings with 2♠ transferring to diamonds.

We have used this scheme for over 10 years and are quite happy with it.

[straube]

I'd recommend going to the BBO teaching tables, looking at hands and then deciding what's best for your partnership.

I think it's hard to stop on a dime introducing a 5-cd major after a 2D opening. There are wins, sure, but often responder will have a fit for diamonds (even a good fit) and languish in a 5-2 major suit fit (assuming the response guarantees only a 5-cd suit) when a better diamond fit could be hand. More important, I'm concerned that you'd be giving up too much on constructive auctions. Like how does responder show both 5-cd majors in a constructive or GI way? etc

I'm not recommending this, but if playing 2S is very important to you (and you were willing to give up playing 2H), you could do...

2D-2H (showing spades)
.....2S-no fit, no seventh diamond
..........P or correct or...
2D-2S (showing hearts)

When you preempt 2D, I think you need to accept that you can't get to 2M like other pairs do like after 1D-1H, 2D-2H. Those other pairs deserve to win on that sequence because they've exchanged more information than you have after 2D-2H. Hopefully, you'll get that back for your own 1D-1H, 2D-2H sequence.

Look at how most folks play 2D-2H when 2D is a weak 2-bid. 2H is forcing in most expert practice; they're not trying to get to the best 2-level part score...and these folks have even more reason for the 2H bid to be nf because the weak 2D bid is better defined (usually a 6-cd only suit) and less to offer in terms of game.

When responder has enough stuff to offer a major, he ought to be able to make when partner can raise. When partner doesn't have a raise, a lot of the time the best contract is diamonds. So I like to make it forcing and get my answer.

[whidbey]

straube, on 2011-December-28, 23:02, said:

Hopefully, you'll get that back for your own 1D-1H, 2D-2H sequence.

All good points. I think you meant winning after 1D-1♠-2D-2H...since the 2D bid promised 4 hearts.

It seems 2H by responder after 1D-1S-2m should be non-forcing. What about other continuations?

[straube]

whidbey, on 2011-December-29, 11:57, said:

All good points. I think you meant winning after 1D-1♠-2D-2H...since the 2D bid promised 4 hearts.

It seems 2H by responder after 1D-1S-2m should be non-forcing. What about other continuations?

I meant only that regardless of the meaning of 1D-1H, 2D-2H one has exchanged more information than after 2D-2H.

So your 1D-1S, 2D promises 4H/5D same as ours. We use 1D-2H as 5S/4+H 0-9 or so which lets 1D-1S, 2D-2H be used as an artificial GF instead of a correction.

I'm not sure what other continuations you are referring to.

[Zelandakh]

PrecisionL, on 2011-December-28, 21:17, said:

It is great to use transfers over 2♣ openings with 2♠ transferring to diamonds.

It is also great to use transfers over 2♣ openings with 2♠ as a pseudo-transfer to 2NT covering invitational NT hands, good (but not slammy) club raises, and stopper asks.

[wclass___]

straube, on 2011-December-28, 23:02, said:

Look at how most folks play 2D-2H when 2D is a weak 2-bid. 2H is forcing in most expert practice; they're not trying to get to the best 2-level part score...and these folks have even more reason for the 2H bid to be nf because the weak 2D bid is better defined (usually a 6-cd only suit) and less to offer in terms of game.

Most folks play SAYC; 2/1, but that doesn't mean one should look and copy paste what they do, right...? I don't know how ''folks'' play after 2♦, but i know some good players like current BB winners who play 2♥-2♠ as NF and they are not the only ones.

Anyway - this is more similar to precision type 2♣ than preempts, where most good players play 2♣-2♥/2♠ as NF and IMO it is clearly better than natural+forcing or transfers.

Having said that i still think 2♦-2♥ as some artifical INV+ bid is best.

[Zelandakh]

2D = 11-15, 6+ diamonds, no 4 card major
==
2H = 5+ spades
... - 2S = 0-2 spades
... - ... - 2N = nat INV
... - ... - 3C = diamond support, INV+
... - ... - 3D = 5+ hearts, INV+
... - ... - 3H = 6+ spades, INV+
... - ... - 3S = spades and clubs, GF
... - 2N = 3 spades, min
... - 3C = 3 spades, max
2S = range ask (generally looking for 3NT, a good diamond raise, or slammy with clubd)
... - 2N = min
... - 3C = max, no club stop
... - 3D = max, no club stop
2N = 5 hearts, INV
3C = 5+ hearts, weak or GF
... - 3D = 0-2 hearts
... - ... - 3H = weak
... - ... - 3S = 6+ hearts
... - ... - 3N = to play
... - ... - 4C = nat
... - ... - 4D = cog
... - 3H = 3 hearts
3D/4D = weak raise
3H = 6+ hearts, INV
3S = diamond raise with slam interest

Problems:-
========
we cannot play 2H
we cannot play in 2NT or 3D when Responder has 5-5 majors and opener has a minimum misfit
we cannot make a single-suited slam try in clubs below 3NT
there are many opportunities for opps to double unnatural bids, albeit mostly on constructive sequences

I cannot see a simple way of fixing the problems without losing something which I regard as more important. However I do think this structure is significantly better than the one you posted earlier.

[Statto]

Could 2NT be used as a forcing invitational+ asking bid where opener shows a three card major with a good hand if they have one?