[blackshoe]

The best use of 2NT in a strong club context may well depend on the regulations in force where you're playing. For example, Rosenkranz suggested (in Godfrey's Stairway to the Stars) playing it as a weak 3 level preempt in either minor, allowing 3m to be a preemptive hand with a good suit, with which you'd be happy to see partner bid 3NT. In the ACBL, though, this is a MidChart convention (and it's BS under WBF rules), so hard (around here anyway) to find a place to play it without hassles. Both minors is GCC, iirc, so that would be okay. OTOH, Rosenkranz suggested that if you can't play it as either minor, play it as clubs. At least that way you get the benefit for one suit.

[Mbodell]

blackshoe, on Nov 1 2009, 10:37 AM, said:

The best use of 2NT in a strong club context may well depend on the regulations in force where you're playing. For example, Rosenkranz suggested (in Godfrey's Stairway to the Stars) playing it as a weak 3 level preempt in either minor, allowing 3m to be a preemptive hand with a good suit, with which you'd be happy to see partner bid 3NT. In the ACBL, though, this is a MidChart convention (and it's BS under WBF rules), so hard (around here anyway) to find a place to play it without hassles. Both minors is GCC, iirc, so that would be okay. OTOH, Rosenkranz suggested that if you can't play it as either minor, play it as clubs. At least that way you get the benefit for one suit.

I would think if you are only going to choose one suit, diamonds might be better. In many precision systems you already have an intermediate natural 2♣ bid. It is diamonds where 2♦ is usually not natural and 1♦ is usually already heavily overloaded. So if you could use 2nt to show some sort of diamond hand that is probably more useful than another club hand.

[Apollo81]

awm, on Nov 1 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

My experience is rather the opposite of Noble's. While occasionally opening 1♣ allows the opponents to intervene effectively, I find that this is a win as often as a loss. For example, I may get to defend a doubled partial that outscores declaring the hand myself, I may be warned of what the opponents will lead and avoid a bad 3NT, I may simply reach a better contract because of the ability to place some key finesses in the bidding, or I might play the normal contract better because I can more easily count the opposing distribution. Of course, when the opponents don't bid over 1♣ I'm much better placed for having opened two levels lower.

I've noticed that there's some set of players who feel it's really important to "keep the opponents out of our auction." They seem to be really offended when the opponents bid, feel that their results would be much better if the opponents would just shut up every time it's "our hand" etc. Generally I feel the opposite. Even with a perfect relay method, you can't ask partner where the opponents cards are or how a particular suit breaks between the opponents hands or what the opponents are going to lead against your eventual contract (well okay you can ask, but partner won't know either unless he's peeking). When the opponents bid, sometimes they answer this question for you.

The bad cases are where it goes 1♣ (p) 1♦ and then RHO directs a lead which wouldn't have occurred had we opened 2NT. Or you double them and only get them 1 or 2 (and you have game). 3:2 is about the ratio of these things happening to the good things, in my experience.

[lowerline]

fred, on Oct 21 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

olien, on Oct 21 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

In reply to jdonn's comment

This is a relay system, so probably best not to use natural 2N

1C-1D/ 1H=20+ any
So 1C-1D/ 1N=18-19 and stronger ones go via 1H.

We also chose the nt range we did so that the balanced hands that we open 1D tend to be slightly more sound.

What if partner bids something other than 1D over 1C? Can you still work out all your notrump ranges? Or does partner always respond 1D?

Assuming you can answer these questions, there still might be something to be said for 1C-1D-1H=22+ if balanced, else 20+.

I have never played a relay system so the above could well be nonsense

FWIW I am always happy to play against opponents who use 2NT as some bad preempt.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

example:
1NT = 13-15 (original precision range)
1♣ = 16+ relay --> 1♦ = 0-8

1♣-1♦
1NT = 16-18
1♥ = 19+ relay --> 1♠ = 0-5

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
1NT = 19-21
2NT = 22-23
2♣ = 23+ relay --> responder can no longer deny to show shape

The above can be played together with a natural 1♦ opening. Most Precision players however include an 11-13 balanced hand in their 1♦ opening, having their 1NT opening as 14-16. This makes bidding after the 1♦ opening harder (especially if you want to maintain the symmetry in the relay structure).

Steven

[gwnn]

Steven, Fred's point was that if responder bids something else than 1♦ to 1♣ then maybe sometimes you miss a slam when it is ~20+10 because opener can't show his little extras. Well I guess he's sort of a relay captain and he doesn't need to show anything but then it may become a problem that responder can't show his little extras. Anyway was just trying to clarify Fred's point, or what I thought was Fred's point.

[lowerline]

gwnn, on Nov 16 2009, 05:48 AM, said:

Steven, Fred's point was that if responder bids something else than 1♦ to 1♣ then maybe sometimes you miss a slam when it is ~20+10 because opener can't show his little extras. Well I guess he's sort of a relay captain and he doesn't need to show anything but then it may become a problem that responder can't show his little extras. Anyway was just trying to clarify Fred's point, or what I thought was Fred's point.

I see... If responder bids something else than 1♦, the relay sequence has started and usually continues until complete shape is shown. Then relayer has several options:
Relay (step) to show 19+ and ask for controls
Weak relay (step+1) to show 16-18 and ask for responders strength --> step = min; step+1 = not min with extra controls etc...
3NT to play (showing 16-18) --> pass = min; 4♣ = not min with extra controls etc...

Optionally one can play 4♦ as the end signal, showing a minimum and wanting to sign off in game. Then direct game bids are invitational. Without the end signal, game bids are sign offs.

Steven