[Elianna]

He's saying that they get upset at each other, and start screaming and yelling at each other.

I wouldn't say that they were novices, though. Or maybe I'd say that they've been novices for the last 20+ years.

[1eyedjack]

jdonn, on Jun 16 2009, 05:46 PM, said:

I have seen psychs lead to opponents getting upset over half the time they are made at the table

That surprises me a little. My experience of opponents who complain about a successful psych are the first to gloat and crow on those occasions when the psychic (psychist? psychiatrist?) falls flat on his face and ends up with a negative score of biblical proportions, which happens rather more often than it succeeds.

[Phil]

awm, on Jun 16 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

When you execute a squeeze against novices, there is often a great deal of consternation at the table.

Perhaps if we changed the suit symbols from SHDC to puppies, butterflies, flowers, and bunnies getting squoze would not be so tramatic.

[keylime]

Phil, you are a softie aren't you.....

[jdonn]

Elianna, on Jun 16 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

He's saying that they get upset at each other, and start screaming and yelling at each other.

I wouldn't say that they were novices, though.  Or maybe I'd say that they've been novices for the last 20+ years.

So they get mad at their partner but not the squeezer. Wtp? That's their business, obviously they have no problem with the squeeze itself or they would get mad at declarer. It has little to do with a squeeze anyway, no matter how I play the hand an opponent can make a bad discard.

I just really think he is making a very inaccurate comparison, and based on a situation I have never encountered at all.

[awm]

Honestly, I've seen people get bent out of shape at the club for all sorts of reasons. Some of the more interesting ones:

(1) After the hand, declarer/north said "down two" his LHO said "500?" (which was the correct score) and declarer flew off the handle.

(2) Dummy played a card before declarer called for it. An opponent asked declarer "did you call for that card?" and declarer started insulting/lecturing her.

(3) A pair pre-alerted that they play unusual methods. Their opponent (one of the most experienced players at the club and a diamond life master, who often plays unusual methods himself at the same club) was furious and accused them of "ruining the game."

(4) A pair of good young players are told "we're glad you skipped our table, we didn't want to play you."

(5) A pair of beginner young players play at a table. Their opponents loudly exclaim after the round that they have "no business playing in this game."

(6) The round has already started when E/W move to a new table. The boards are lying on a side table where they have been passed. East picks up the boards and places them on the table. North is furious that he "touched the boards."

(7) North fills out a score on the traveller and puts it away. West asks if he may look at the other scores. North: "are you accusing me of cheating?"

(8) North opens and east overcalls at the two level. South then asks west a bunch of questions about east's overcall -- after initially responding "it's natural, no special agreements" south continues to ask about point range and west says "probably ten or more points." South ends up declarer and goes down, and after the hand is furious that east "did not have ten points" (in fact he had exactly ten points).

(9) A player basically bowls over another player with his walker. As the victim is getting up off the floor, the player with the walker is furious at him for not getting out of the way.

(10) A player leaves trash all over the table, including a half-filled beverage and a half-eaten bagel. When the next player coming to the table asks if he could "please clean up his mess" he becomes furious.

Putting these together, if the goal of playing at the club is to "keep the regulars happy" I suspect it'd be better not to play at the club at all. A new player (whether expert or novice or anywhere in between) is just likely to rile 'em up more.

[jillybean]

In conclusion; its bloody hard if not impossible for the average bridge player to find a decent game of duplicate bridge where people follow the laws and dont get bent out of shape when people play to win.

[glen]

fred, on Jun 14 2009, 04:24 AM, said:

Elianna, on Jun 14 2009, 02:43 AM, said:

fred, on Jun 13 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

- when faced with a 2-way finesse for a Queen, leading the Jack and then the sitting there for several minutes before deciding what to do

Do you mean declarer plays the J; LHO plays low, and then declarer sits there and decides what to do? If so, I don't see why this is not classy, it just seems really annoying. It's like if there's AQ on the board, and declarer leads small to it and then thinks what to do. It's highly annoying, but I don't know if it's classless, more clueless.

Yes, that is what I mean.

The reason I don't think it is classy is because players who engage in this practice are often hoping that one of their opponents will eventually tell them who holds their Queen via their mannerisms.

Cluelessness is another possibility as is being under time pressure and not wanting to waste time thinking about who has the Queen if it happens to be singleton on your left.

But about cluelessness, perhaps I should have mentioned that many of the items on my list are examples of the type of behavior I would hope experts (who by definition are not clueless) would not get involved in. Average players frequently do some of these things simply because they don't know any better.

IMO experts are supposed to know better and should be held to a higher standard.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Fred, if you had stayed in Canada a little longer, you might have faced this situation:

Your expert opponent, in a top level match, when faced with a 2-way finesse for a Queen, leads the Jack and then sits there for several minutes before deciding what to do.

Would you think this was not classy?

Would it be possible for you to remark in a public forum, such as the bar afterwards with your teammates, that you thought it was not classy?

In hidden text, is the reason:

Spoiler

Early-onset Alzheimer's, unknown to anybody, including the expert who was just trying the best s/he could

[quiddity]

1eyedjack, on Jun 16 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

... the psychic (psychist? psychiatrist?)...

psycho

[Phil]

awm, on Jun 16 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

Honestly, I've seen people get bent out of shape at the club....

If this was Beverly Hills I would not be surprised. It is, by far, the WORST club for these antics I have ever seen.

[Cascade]

Oof Arted, on Jun 16 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

yes wayne but which would you get more pleasure out of

Knowing your card play was the reason you got good results

or

that you needed to psyche against lesser players

???????????

Legally there is no difference between a psychic bid and some advanced card play.

I accept my wins and losses on both accounts equally.

[TimG]

Cascade, on Jun 16 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Legally there is no difference between a psychic bid and some advanced card play.

I accept my wins and losses on both accounts equally.

Winning may not be the only objective for all.

[Oof Arted]

awm, on Jun 16 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

Honestly, I've seen people get bent out of shape at the club for all sorts of reasons. Some of the more interesting ones:

(1) After the hand, declarer/north said "down two" his LHO said "500?" (which was the correct score) and declarer flew off the handle.

(2) Dummy played a card before declarer called for it. An opponent asked declarer "did you call for that card?" and declarer started insulting/lecturing her.

(3) A pair pre-alerted that they play unusual methods. Their opponent (one of the most experienced players at the club and a diamond life master, who often plays unusual methods himself at the same club) was furious and accused them of "ruining the game."

(4) A pair of good young players are told "we're glad you skipped our table, we didn't want to play you."

(5) A pair of beginner young players play at a table. Their opponents loudly exclaim after the round that they have "no business playing in this game."

(6) The round has already started when E/W move to a new table. The boards are lying on a side table where they have been passed. East picks up the boards and places them on the table. North is furious that he "touched the boards."

(7) North fills out a score on the traveller and puts it away. West asks if he may look at the other scores. North: "are you accusing me of cheating?"

(8) North opens and east overcalls at the two level. South then asks west a bunch of questions about east's overcall -- after initially responding "it's natural, no special agreements" south continues to ask about point range and west says "probably ten or more points." South ends up declarer and goes down, and after the hand is furious that east "did not have ten points" (in fact he had exactly ten points).

(9) A player basically bowls over another player with his walker. As the victim is getting up off the floor, the player with the walker is furious at him for not getting out of the way.

(10) A player leaves trash all over the table, including a half-filled beverage and a half-eaten bagel. When the next player coming to the table asks if he could "please clean up his mess" he becomes furious.

Putting these together, if the goal of playing at the club is to "keep the regulars happy" I suspect it'd be better not to play at the club at all. A new player (whether expert or novice or anywhere in between) is just likely to rile 'em up more.

dont you have a TD

seems you need one to sort this out

having 2 copies of the law book

one in paper back

one in hard back

reason

use the paper back to admonish those in 1,4,6,9,10

use the hard back in the rest

Why hard back ??? to hit the really abnoxious ones with

[1eyedjack]

quiddity, on Jun 16 2009, 11:53 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jun 16 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

... the psychic (psychist? psychiatrist?)...

psycho

Yay - that's the one I shall be using from now on.

[barmar]

awm, on Jun 16 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

Honestly, I've seen people get bent out of shape at the club for all sorts of reasons. Some of the more interesting ones:

It doesn't just happen at clubs. At a sectional this weekend my partner bid 2♠ over opener's strong 2♣ opener. He later was annoyed that my partner didn't have the 8+ HCP that our CC says we should have for simple overcalls and I didn't alert it. He acted like it was the first time anyone had ever overcalled in that auction.

Regarding "classiness", I'm not sure how to feel about something I said last night at our club. It was a team game, and on one board both tables bid to 4♠. The hand should normally go down 1, although at our table we managed to set it 2. Declarer's suit is AQT8xx opposite 9x in dummy, and LHO has KJxx. At the other table, at some point LHO revoked by trying to ruff with the J. The revoke was discovered before it was established, so it became a penalty card. Declarer, the teenage son of one of the long-time club members (who he partners with), could have taken advantage of the penalty card by finessing his Q, since LHO would be forced to play the J under it, and he would have made the contract. But he didn't want to win by taking advantage of a technicality like this. He played more normally and eventually went down 1.

His father pointed out to him that he could have done this, and I also chided him, saying that taking advantage of opponents' mistakes is part of the game. But on thinking about this some more, I'm less sure. In one of these threads about psyching and ethics, I mentioned the Golden Rule, and I think that may be what was going through his mind. This was a friendly club game, not a cut-throat competition. And as he's a relative novice, I'm feeling conflicted about what I was teaching him.

[blackshoe]

Ask him for an undo.

[helene_t]

At all the clubs I have been playing at, it is considered normal to take advantage of a penalty card. So where I play the answer would be that you did the right thing. Tennis players are allowed to take advantage of opps mishits also. But I realize that the cultrue could be different elsewhere. And it is somewhat arbitrary since bids out of turn are often not penalized.

I had some awkward feelings some time ago when I took advantage of a penalty card by an opp who suffers from Parkinson's. But he might have considered it an insult if I had given him special treatment.

[glen]

Speaking of club games, and taking advantage or not, at a local club recently, we had one opponent, then the other on the same hand, have a bidding accident of some sort that we allowed them to self-correct. No problem, as they got to the final contract they would have got to without these accidents. This is right thing to do at this club. The only unusual circumstance was that we were playing in the worldwide event, and since our opponents got to a perfect-cards contract (a common occurrence in this event) they scored particularly well - thus, worldwide, there would be a considerable number of pairs that would have done very slightly better had the opponents not been able to self-correct their accidents.

As to a psych at a club game, if the opponents are ACBL Life Masters or stronger, I believe that if we want to consider presenting to all that these players have mastery of bridge for life, that this includes the ability to cope with the occasional psych. At some point we have to take the training wheels off for our Life Masters.