[Codo]

3 ♣ leaves them enough places to find the best game, even 3 NT.

So why take the risk to let them find out about their best fit at an easy level?

When they would know that your partner is 541 and that they have no fit and no game on their side, 4 ♣ would be a big risk. But they don't know it.

And when partner is 5341, who knows, maybe rho will double with 4/3 in the majors and LHO will take spades into a 4/3 fit?

I think with 3♣ you have the worst of both worlds. Not as construcitve as 2 Club and not as preemptive as 4 club. And at least for me it would never ever show a good 8 card suit. But taste differs.

[whereagles]

benlessard, on May 6 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

Bidding 3C is safe, it allow possibly 3 nt on our side, it place us well for sacrifice at 5C and make life a bit more difficult for the opps than 2C. What more do you want ?

Suppose LHO is 43 majors and RHO 44 majors.

If you bid 3♣, LHO can double and RHO will bid 4♣ and opps land in the right major.

If you bid 4♣, LHO can still double, but now RHO will have to guess which major to bid. He may guess wrong.

The point is 4♣ should be preferred to 3 whenever it's safe enough to bid it. This hand seems safe enough to me.

5♣ isn't a good deal because opps are going to let you play it (doubled or not) 90%+ of the time and your playing strength probably won't be enough for it.

[mtvesuvius]

4♣ is IMO losing bridge. If you go down 2, the opponents must have a game. If you go down 1 doubled, the opponents must have a game. If you go down 3 doubled the opponents must have a slam. With 7 losers in our own hand, how many of those are we really expected to get rid of without losing the fact that the opponents make game? 3♣ often will not go down too many, but it's too easy for the opponents to find a makable game or partscore if they have one, and partner with a decent hand that may make 3NT will pass. 5♣ was already established as suicide, so that leaves 2♣. 2♣ has little pre-emptive effect, but works whenever partner has a good hand, or when partner has trash. It also doesn't commit to anything yet, since you can always rebid 4/5♣ if partner raises.

[whereagles]

What's losing bridge to me is to count the hand for 7 losers

Pard's club expectancy is 1-2 cards and even if he has 0, clubs can break 2-2 or 3-1 with singleton honor. There's also a chance opps lead a diamond or that you manage to get to dummy to play a a diam to the king.

I would count it as 5,5 or 6 losers, but never as 7.

[wclass___]

IMO 4♣ is simply a bit too much. I want to drag opps into guessing, but
if you bid 4♣, it's you who have made the major guess.

3♣ on the contrary allows for them to enter the race more freely and judge wrong. I have enough def values to expect many of their games to go down.
I simply doun't see necessity to bid 4, 3 does put enough pressure.

Clear pressure bid

[655321]

mtvesuvius, on May 6 2009, 09:06 AM, said:

4♣ is IMO losing bridge. If you go down 2, the opponents must have a game. If you go down 1 doubled, the opponents must have a game. If you go down 3 doubled the opponents must have a slam.

If the opponents always did the right thing over 4♣ I would agree with you. But they don't, do they?

[bid_em_up]

Partner's hand:

---

And everyone is worried about how many 4C may go down.

For the record, I chose 4♣. Tyler simply raised to 5 with this hand (what is your choice?). With the stiff K♣ onside, it makes 7. Tyler felt the hand was too heavy for 4♣. I think its a little more discretional, given that it occured at a table in the main bridge club (or maybe an ACBL tournament) and not in any "serious" play.

[marcD]

mtvesuvius, on May 6 2009, 09:06 AM, said:

4♣ is IMO losing bridge. If you go down 2, the opponents must have a game. If you go down 1 doubled, the opponents must have a game. If you go down 3 doubled the opponents must have a slam. With 7 losers in our own hand, how many of those are we really expected to get rid of without losing the fact that the opponents make game? 3♣ often will not go down too many, but it's too easy for the opponents to find a makable game or partscore if they have one, and partner with a decent hand that may make 3NT will pass. 5♣ was already established as suicide, so that leaves 2♣. 2♣ has little pre-emptive effect, but works whenever partner has a good hand, or when partner has trash. It also doesn't commit to anything yet, since you can always rebid 4/5♣ if partner raises.

Think you are confusing MP and bridge .2♣ and 4♣ are reasonnable alternartives but I think the higher variance 4♣ has many ways to win. I would probably bid 2♣ at the qualifying stage of a strong event and 4♣ in the final stages . Do not like 3♣ at all (unless it is intermediate whatever that means) and 5♣ is beyond the last guess level : they will simply double

[whereagles]

bid_em_up, on May 6 2009, 02:43 PM, said:

Tyler simply raised to 5 with this hand (what is your choice?).

Well, picturing overcaller with something like 8 clubs to the AK and out, it's 11,5 tricks on the hand. Since he may not be that strong, 5 seems just about right.

The key is the diamond queen, which is a working card. Had the Q been on a major, 5 surely is the right contract.

It seems to me quite impossible to gauge our diamond trick source, especially since it's good odds the ♦K is sitting over the Q. So yeah, basically I agree with a simple raise to 5.