[andy_h]

Is 3C/4C fit jump really going to help out partner that much? Is partner meant to like his x/xx/xxx of clubs? I understand it is "getting our hand off our chest" but how is partner going to evaluate those club holdings? I guess xxx isn't so bad since we're leading through the supposedly real 1NT hand.
I'm tempted to just have bid 4H over 1NT given we don't open light in 3rd seat. I'm also guessing 2NT over 1NT is also undiscussed. I'm not saying I dislike 3C, just wondering if it's that beneficial.

Anyway, I will defo bid 5H given how the auction has proceeded. Although it's blatantly obvious that RHO has psyched given the 5D bid, I would ideally prefer a pass then 5H over partner's x if my pass was forcing inviting slam.

[mikeh]

andy_h, on Apr 29 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Is 3C/4C fit jump really going to help out partner that much? Is partner meant to like his x/xx/xxx of clubs? I understand it is "getting our hand off our chest" but how is partner going to evaluate those club holdings? I guess xxx isn't so bad since we're leading through the supposedly real 1NT hand.
I'm tempted to just have bid 4H over 1NT given we don't open light in 3rd seat. I'm also guessing 2NT over 1NT is also undiscussed. I'm not saying I dislike 3C, just wondering if it's that beneficial.

Anyway, I will defo bid 5H given how the auction has proceeded. Although it's blatantly obvious that RHO has psyched given the 5D bid, I would ideally prefer a pass then 5H over partner's x if my pass was forcing inviting slam.

The benefit of the fit-jump is that it may well create a fp scenario.. whereby we could pass while not fearing that the next thing we hear woould be 'your lead'.

In this auction, I very much doubt that 2♦... good raise to 2♥... comes close to establishing a fp, even after partner's 4♥ call. Maybe it does, maybe it should, but are we certain that both of us think it does.

While I would use 4♣ as a splinter and 3♣ as fit, in this auction, I concede that 4♣ fit would be better, since it shows a gf hand...and it would have either silenced rho or generated a double... now rho's diamond bid would be known BY ALL to have been a psyche and we would be in a fp situation for sure.

[Apollo81]

I would have bid 4 of a minor over 1NT. Which one depends on whether we're playing fit jumps or splinters in this situation. I don't think the 2♦ bid did our hand justice, which is why we have a problem now.

[OleBerg]

mikeh, on Apr 29 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

andy_h, on Apr 29 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Is 3C/4C fit jump really going to help out partner that much? Is partner meant to like his x/xx/xxx of clubs? I understand it is "getting our hand off our chest" but how is partner going to evaluate those club holdings? I guess xxx isn't so bad since we're leading through the supposedly real 1NT hand.
I'm tempted to just have bid 4H over 1NT given we don't open light in 3rd seat. I'm also guessing 2NT over 1NT is also undiscussed. I'm not saying I dislike 3C, just wondering if it's that beneficial.

Anyway, I will defo bid 5H given how the auction has proceeded. Although it's blatantly obvious that RHO has psyched given the 5D bid, I would ideally prefer a pass then 5H over partner's x if my pass was forcing inviting slam.

The benefit of the fit-jump is that it may well create a fp scenario.. whereby we could pass while not fearing that the next thing we hear woould be 'your lead'.

In this auction, I very much doubt that 2♦... good raise to 2♥... comes close to establishing a fp, even after partner's 4♥ call. Maybe it does, maybe it should, but are we certain that both of us think it does.

While I would use 4♣ as a splinter and 3♣ as fit, in this auction, I concede that 4♣ fit would be better, since it shows a gf hand...and it would have either silenced rho or generated a double... now rho's diamond bid would be known BY ALL to have been a psyche and we would be in a fp situation for sure.

Actually it makes a lot of sense that a fitbid should not establish a force. It should simply say "I have thrumph support and this suit, if it fits your hand, compete if the opponents bid." Whether partners bid will be to win, or as a good sacrifice, is not immediately known.

On the actual hand, I would feel quite comfortable to make a "penalty" double of 5♦, if I had already shown that my values were concentrated in hearts and clubs.

Thus a 4♣ bid could be the hand in question, but also something like:

♠ xx
♥ Jxxxx
♦ x
♣ KQJxx

This hand would of course simply pass 5♦.

[cherdanno]

A fit jump would never create a forcing pass for me here. I am a passed hand and partner is a 3rd seat opener. On top of that, the point of the fit jump is to describe the hand reasonable well, so that partner can make the final decision. He may well have a strong opinion that our best guess is to let them play undoubled.

[kenrexford]

I'm rather disgusted with this entire post. I mean, I agree 100% with Mike and Josh. Frankly pisses me off. LOL

[gnasher]

andy_h, on Apr 29 2009, 06:10 PM, said:

Is 3C/4C fit jump really going to help out partner that much? Is partner meant to like his x/xx/xxx of clubs?

With a singleton, he'll probably like it enough to make a penalty double.

With a doubleton, he'll like knowing that he shouldn't bid 5♥.

With three, he'll like knowing that my values aren't pulling their weight in defence, and will use that to judge what to do.

With four clubs, he'll probably like them enough to bid 5♥.

I don't think a fit jump should set up a forcing pass. With this hand I'd bid 4♣ and then double 5♦ to show extra values.

[andy_h]

gnasher, on Apr 30 2009, 07:42 PM, said:

andy_h, on Apr 29 2009, 06:10 PM, said:

Is 3C/4C fit jump really going to help out partner that much? Is partner meant to like his x/xx/xxx of clubs?

With a singleton, he'll probably like it enough to make a penalty double.

With a doubleton, he'll like knowing that he shouldn't bid 5♥.

With three, he'll like knowing that my values aren't pulling their weight in defence, and will use that to judge what to do.

With four clubs, he'll probably like them enough to bid 5♥.

I don't think a fit jump should set up a forcing pass. With this hand I'd bid 4♣ and then double 5♦ to show extra values.

Yeah sure. I think I was trying to make a small point that x/xx/xxx aren't exactly bad holdings for partner since we're the one looking at AKQTx. Especially if he's bid 4♥ on something like Axx AKxxxx xxx x.

[hanp]

cherdanno, on Apr 29 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

A fit jump would never create a forcing pass for me here. I am a passed hand and partner is a 3rd seat opener. On top of that, the point of the fit jump is to describe the hand reasonable well, so that partner can make the final decision. He may well have a strong opinion that our best guess is to let them play undoubled.

Well said.

[Phil]

I might have opened this hand.

I hope that a 4♣ would create a force.

Anyway, I think this is a pretty clear 3♣ FJ. While I might trudge on to 4♥, 4♣ lies about either a 5th trump or a 6th club and partner will misevaluate our offensive potential.

I don't like a near solid suit for a FJ, but it does tell partner where our values are and will evaluate shortness in clubs / intermediate cards in diamonds and spades properly for defense, and club length / toppers in diamonds and spades for offense.

Agree the auction sounds fishy, although its quite possible partner is jokering in 3rd seat.

For now, I will just pass. If I called this a limit raise, so be it. Partner has a chance.

[peachy]

andy_h, on Apr 29 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Is 3C/4C fit jump really going to help out partner that much? Is partner meant to like his x/xx/xxx of clubs? I understand it is "getting our hand off our chest" but how is partner going to evaluate those club holdings? I guess xxx isn't so bad since we're leading through the supposedly real 1NT hand.
I'm tempted to just have bid 4H over 1NT given we don't open light in 3rd seat. I'm also guessing 2NT over 1NT is also undiscussed. I'm not saying I dislike 3C, just wondering if it's that beneficial.

Anyway, I will defo bid 5H given how the auction has proceeded. Although it's blatantly obvious that RHO has psyched given the 5D bid, I would ideally prefer a pass then 5H over partner's x if my pass was forcing inviting slam.

I don't think a passed hand can make a forcing pass, or what say others?

Anyway, I am bidding 5H to make. The 1NT bidder was apparently kidding and setting 5D might not be enough for us.

[Phil]

peachy, on Apr 30 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

andy_h, on Apr 29 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Is 3C/4C fit jump really going to help out partner that much? Is partner meant to like his x/xx/xxx of clubs? I understand it is "getting our hand off our chest" but how is partner going to evaluate those club holdings? I guess xxx isn't so bad since we're leading through the supposedly real 1NT hand.
I'm tempted to just have bid 4H over 1NT given we don't open light in 3rd seat. I'm also guessing 2NT over 1NT is also undiscussed. I'm not saying I dislike 3C, just wondering if it's that beneficial.

Anyway, I will defo bid 5H given how the auction has proceeded. Although it's blatantly obvious that RHO has psyched given the 5D bid, I would ideally prefer a pass then 5H over partner's x if my pass was forcing inviting slam.

I don't think a passed hand can make a forcing pass, or what say others?

Anyway, I am bidding 5H to make. The 1NT bidder was apparently kidding and setting 5D might not be enough for us.

4♣ would set up a FP at the 4 level. I don't think it would at the 5 level.

In the context of this particular auction, with a 1N overcall, I'm not sure the normal rules apply.