[happybridge]

1.
2NT P(opp) 3♣(pd) 3♥(OPP)
X?
2NT=20-22 blance
3♣=puppet stayman
3♥=long ♥ preem
question:X=? why?

2.
2NT P(opp) 3♣ 3♥(OPP)
pass pass(opp) x(pd)?
2NT=20-22 blance
3♣=puppet stayman
3♥=long ♥ preem
question:pd X=? why?

thx

[the hog]

Penalty
Takeout

[paulg]

It is unusual but for once I disagree with The_Hog as I feel that the double must have the same meaning by both sides of the partnership - either both doubles are takeout or both are penalty. Otherwise someone, partner on this occasion, cannot double for penalty.

My preference is for double to be takeout in both situations - as it would be over 1NT interference too.

Cheers

Paul

[mr1303]

If doubles are take-out, then partner will have to make a penalty double for partner. E.g

1NT 2H P P
X

I don't like doing this, as I consider that I've bid my hand by opening 1NT. Therefore I play all doubles after 1NT (or 2NT) as penalty.

Following a stayman sequence, the double should be optional, i.e. to say I have 4H, and would have hearts in response to the stayman enquiry. With an unsuitable hand to sit for the double, responder should pull

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi happybridge!

Spoiler

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Good partnership bidding depend of needs of your partner to make right decision. 3♣ asks you about majors, so primary goal of nice partner is to bid about them. So:
1. dbl = 4 cards ♠; 3♠ = 5 cards ♠; Pass: 3-♠, denied stopper ♥; 3NT: 3-♠, stopper ♥
2. If above bids are agreed, then: dbl: penalty, probably without ♥ stopper; 3♠: 5 cards ♠; 3NT: 4-♠, stopper ♥;

Spoiler

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Misho

[Free]

I play a bit similar to Misho's way:

2NT - p - 3C - 3H
?

Pass = no stop H or penalty
Dbl = stop H, 4 card S
3S = stop H, 5 card S

so after you've passed, it goes:

2NT - p - 3C - 3H
p - p - Dbl - p
?

Pass = penalty
3S = 4/5 card S (no stop H) (if partner bids 3NT now, opener bids 4S with a 5 card)
3NT = 3 card S (no stop H)

[1eyedjack]

mr1303, on Mar 28 2004, 05:07 AM, said:

If doubles are take-out, then partner will have to make a penalty double for partner. E.g

1NT 2H P P
X

I don't like doing this, as I consider that I've bid my hand by opening 1NT. Therefore I play all doubles after 1NT (or 2NT) as penalty.

Following a stayman sequence, the double should be optional, i.e. to say I have 4H, and would have hearts in response to the stayman enquiry. With an unsuitable hand to sit for the double, responder should pull

A bit late in for this discussion, but I disagree strongly with this.

For those who think that 1N opener has "bid his hand", how many tricks do you as 1N opener think you can contribute to the defence of (say) a natural 2D overcall with each of the following 3 hands, and then ask yourself (for each hand) the same question were you to declare the hand in Spades instead (in which responder holds 4 cards). And having worked out that disparity, ask yourself if you are happy to leave all the decision to responder, who "knows your hand like the back of his".

(1)
♠AJ94
♥KQ6
♦96
♣AQ76

(2)
♠96
♥KQ6
♦AJ94
♣AQ76

(3)
♠KQ6
♥96
♦AJ942
♣AQ7

As a rule, opener can virtually NEVER (with the possible exception of hand 3 above) double the opponents for penalties opposite a partner who has done nothing but pass on a potential Yarborough.

However, if responder can double for take-out, which at least now shows some values, opener CAN convert that double to penalties by passing with a suitable hand.

It is also fairly safe (not guaranteed, but fairly) for opener to double for takeout opposite a partner who could have nothing. Responder can pass for penalties with a suitable hand. With trump shortage he will pull. The only really bad hand is when responder has length in the opponents suit and severe weakness with no other suit.

If you are playing penalty doubles, then you are fixed on hands that are suitable for takeout doubles. If you are playing takeout doubles, then you may be fixed on hands that are suitable for penalty doubles. The penalty double hands have more points at stake (in IMPs anyway, perhaps not in MP), BUT: (1) your partner may yet make a t/o double for you to pass, or you can bid a game contract instead. By contrast, the takeout double hand types are more frequent. And if both sides are making a partscore the IMPs at stake are comparable to missing a NV game if you allow them to play in theirs.

The principal risk in both hands playing takeout doubles is that if the opponents psyche a suit so that both of you have "penalty" shape, neither of you can double.

[joker_gib]

mishovnbg, on Mar 28 2004, 07:37 AM, said:

Spoiler

---------------------------------------

Hi happybridge!

Spoiler

------

Good partnership bidding depend of needs of your partner to make right decision. 3♣ asks you about majors, so primary goal of nice partner is to bid about them. So:
1. dbl = 4 cards ♠; 3♠ = 5 cards ♠; Pass: 3-♠, denied stopper ♥; 3NT: 3-♠, stopper ♥
2. If above bids are agreed, then: dbl: penalty, probably without ♥ stopper; 3♠: 5 cards ♠; 3NT: 4-♠, stopper ♥;

Spoiler

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Misho

Hi Misho !

You seem to guarantee 3 cards in ♠ but you can have only 2, can't you ?

By the way, the problem is more interesting on ♠ overcall because of lack of space !

What on :

2NT p 3♣ 3♠
X ????


Alain

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

-------------------------------------

Hi Alain!

You seem to guarantee 3 cards in ♠ but you can have only 2, can't you ?

-> No, if you notice little minus sign after 3, it mean 3 or less cards

By the way, the problem is more interesting on ♠ overcall because of lack of space !

-> Of course, the higher is bidding, the more guessing you need. If opps bid 6♠ for example, my dbl will still show 4+♥...

What on :

2NT p 3♣ 3♠
X ????

dbl: 4+♥; pass: deny 4♥ or stopper ♠

Spoiler

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Misho

[EarlPurple]

After a 2NT opening and a 3♣ response, are you in a forcing situation? I would say probably. In a forcing situation, doubles are penalty, so both doubles in the original sequence were penalty.

1NT 2♥ pass pass
Dbl

is a different situation as you were not in a forcing situation and opener could pass. Dbl here is best played as take-out.

And no, it's match-points in particular where you want to defend doubled rather than undoubled, as merely going plus on the board may be inadequate. You'll want to take 200 against vulnerable opps and 300 against non-vulnerable opps to beat any part-score you were making.

[Trpltrbl]

I play Penalty both ways.
But, I like what Misho and Free suggest, certainly worth taking a look at.
I know I will.

Mike