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Strategy with 4-4-4-1 Acol theory

Poll: How to handle 4-4-4-1 (stiff club) (16 member(s) have cast votes)

How to handle 4-4-4-1 (stiff club)

  1. Open 1H (7 votes [43.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.75%

  2. Open 1NT (3 votes [18.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.75%

  3. Open 1D & rebid 2H over 2C (2 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  4. Open 1D & rebid 2D over 2C (3 votes [18.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.75%

  5. Other (1 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

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#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 03:58

If you play in some part of the world where 1NT is 12-14 and you are allowed to open a major with four, what is your plan in first seat with this

♠KJ76   ♥AT43   ♦KQ72   ♣2   ?

1♦ - 2♣ - 2NT is 15-17 forcing.

Perhaps you play 5-cd majors. Then what?

Nick
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#2 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 04:29

shevek, on Dec 25 2008, 09:58 AM, said:

If you play in some part of the world where 1NT is 12-14 and you are allowed to open a major with four

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#3 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 04:36

If I don't open 1♥ with this, why am I playing 4-card majors? So I can open 1M with a strong NT?
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#4 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 05:10

cherdano, on Dec 25 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

If I don't open 1♥ with this, why am I playing 4-card majors? So I can open 1M with a strong NT?

Yes, that's the main reason for playing 12-14 and 4-card majors. It means that 1M is always either unbalanced or a good hand.

Acol is no better at handling this shape than any other system. 1x-2y; 2NT shows 15+, so that's out. The choices are:
- Open 1H and rebid 2D over 2C, implying five hearts.
- Open 1D and rebid 2D over 2C
- Open 1NT

Most people open 1♥ and rebid 2♦.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 05:18

Standard is 1♥. I prefer 1NT though.

If you play weak NT with 5cM and don't like to open this hand 1NT, you need a special agreement. I think Frances open 1♦ and rebids 2♥ over 2♣, which doesn't promise extras as it would in most natural systems.
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#6 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 08:03

shevek, on Dec 25 2008, 12:58 PM, said:

If you play in some part of the world where 1NT is 12-14 and you are allowed to open a major with four, what is your plan in first seat with this

♠KJ76   ♥AT43   ♦KQ72   ♣2   ?

1♦ - 2♣ - 2NT is 15-17 forcing.

Perhaps you play 5-cd majors. Then what?

Nick

Doesn't this depend on partnership agreement?

My impression is that one traditionally opened the suit over the singleton playing Acol. (This might have changed)
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#7 User is offline   foo 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 08:48

shevek, on Dec 25 2008, 04:58 AM, said:

If you play in some part of the world where 1NT is 12-14 and you are allowed to open a major with four, what is your plan in first seat with this

♠KJ76_♥AT43_♦KQ72_♣2

1♦-2♣;2N is 15-17 forcing.

Perhaps you play 5-cd majors. Then what?

Nick

IIRC, Eric Rodwell once wrote an article where he suggested a radical way to handle minimum opening strength 4441's in 1st or 2nd.

Pass.

If one can't bring ones self to adopt that approach, then your partnership has to figure out how they will handle this issue.

I've seen just about every imaginable way of dealing with this issue. I have not seen a way that experts overwhelming liked over the others.

So, pick one
a= pass
b= open 1D and raise 1M or pass 1N (my favorite with this strength =4441)
c= open a major and rebid 2D or pass 1N
d= do something like what Frances does
e= play a 3 suited opening

At least this hand type is easier to deal with than minimum opening strength =1444's.
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#8 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 09:17

1H as I play MajorsAlwaysFirst,MAF-style openings. Responder always shows 4cS with 3cH support.

By the way this hand is MUCH higher trick expectancy than a common 16hcp hand. (simmers try this out) So I ask passers how in the world will you 'catch up' a game force plus when partner shows light or better opener? Can't hope that works well.
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#9 User is offline   foo 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 11:45

dake50, on Dec 25 2008, 10:17 AM, said:

... this hand is MUCH higher trick expectancy than a common 16hcp hand. (simmers try this out) So I ask passers how in the world will you 'catch up' a game force plus when partner shows light or better opener? Can't hope that works well.

13 HCP 4441's have a higher trick taking expectancy than the average 16 HCP hand?

If that's true, I must be misremembering Eric Rodwell's article. He's got a decent reputation as a theorist after all.

Yet another reference to try and find. Anyone out there know the Rodwell article where he makes comments on minimum strength 4441's, please post a cite?
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#10 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 15:26

1NT for me.
Wayne Burrows

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#11 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 15:31

Playing Acol, you have to open 1H,
since otherwise you are dead after
a 2C response, of course 1NT is
reasonable as well.

If playing 5 card major with a weak NT,
... I will open 1NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe
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#12 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 15:39

Playing 4 card majors you can open either 4 card major and have an easy rebid. I have no experience there but one or the other should be normal on this shape.

Playing 5 card majors you open 1♦, and if partner bids 2♣ then one of 2♦, 2M, or 2NT should be allowed with this shape. I find the suggestions to start with pass or 1NT both extremely silly.
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#13 User is offline   TMorris 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 16:03

Playing Acol you can open 1♦ and rebid 2♦. That way you don't get to play in a 4-2 ♥ fit at the game level. If partner passes 2♦ you probably have no fit so at least have stopped at a low level. If partner has a 4-card major and responds 2♣ to 1♦ then they will have sufficient values to go on over 2♦.
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#14 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 16:10

jdonn, on Dec 25 2008, 04:39 PM, said:

<snip>
Playing 5 card majors you open 1♦, and if partner bids 2♣ then one of 2♦, 2M, or 2NT should be allowed with this shape. I find the suggestions to start with pass or 1NT both extremely silly.

If you play 5 card majors and a weak NT,
than at least I would assume, that the 2NT
rebid showes the strong NT, hence rebidding
2NT is not an option.

And if you allow the 2NTrebid, which also showes
a bal. shape, than allowing to open 1NT is not hugely
different.

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Marlowe
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#15 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-December-25, 16:24

hrothgar, on Dec 25 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

My impression is that one traditionally opened the suit over the singleton playing Acol. (This might have changed)

No, the suit under the stiff, and 1♥ with this hand. Modern standard is 1♦ with 1444 but otherwise unchanged.

Josh finds 1nt extremely silly but the standard 1♥ opening leads to a rebid problem over 2♣. The only option is then 2♦ which otherwise would have been a 5card hearts and p very often takes preference with a doubleton hearts.
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#16 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-December-26, 07:59

1NT, I don't consider this a big problem.
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#17 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-December-26, 08:36

"IIRC, Eric Rodwell once wrote an article where he suggested a radical way to handle minimum opening strength 4441's in 1st or 2nd.

Pass."
Can you cite the source of this please?

I would open 1H.

"Playing Acol you can open 1♦ and rebid 2♦." Really? Can you? News to me!
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#18 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2008-December-26, 08:44

Is 1D followed by 2H showing extras ? If so I guess that 1D followed by 2D is any minimum with possibly 5 crappy diamonds (so this seems to be the smaller lie).

Opening 1Nt ,showing 5H or passing are terrible ways to play bridge.
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