[jillybean]

Dealer: West Vul: All Scoring: IMP

♠ J754 ♥ K6 ♦ 75 ♣ A9864

West North East South

 1♣    Pass  1♠    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

D7 DA DT D3
SA ST S6 S4
S2 H8 SK S5
CJ CA C2 C5
D5 D4 DJ D6
DQ D8 ?


What do you play here and why?

(or doesnt it matter, theyre going to make 4 anyway)

[dicklont]

Before I play I would ask dummy to finally table his hand.

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 1♣    Pass  1♠    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

D7 DA DT D3
SA ST S6 S4
S2 H8 SK S5
CJ CA C2 C5
D5 D4 DJ D6
DQ D8 ?



Very good point!

[foo]

dicklont, on Dec 20 2008, 01:24 AM, said:

Before I play I would ask dummy to finally table his hand.

I'm having a heck of a time picturing the board and play here.

Evidently, W is Dummy and we are _S_:

♠ A832
♥ AJ3
♦ A4
♣ KQT2
..........♠J754♥K6♦75♣A9864

D7 DA DT D3
SA ST S6 S4
S2 H8 SK S5
CJ CA C2 C5
D5 D4 DJ D6
DQ D8 ?

We led D7 -> DA, DT from pard, D3
Then Dummy played the SA -> ST from pard, S6, S4 from us
S2 from dummy -> H8 from pard, SK, S5 from us.
CJ from declarer -> we play 2nd hand high with the CA?, C2, C5 from pard
D5 from us -> D4, DJ from pard, D6
DQ from pard -> D8 from Declarer?
OK, so pard started with QJT or KQJT of ♦'s

If D's are QJT+A4+75, Declarer started with K98xxx of D's.
In which case, why did Declarer not insert the DK on T5 or now?
But if pard started with ♦ KQJT(x), they should be down to KQ(x) now and their lead should be the DK, not the DQ.
Something Smells.

Is Declarer =4261 or =4162 with ♠KQ96 & ♦K98632 & ♣J(x)?

If so,
a= They are playing a style where responder bypasses even 6 ♦'s to show a 4cM
That usually implies a minimum.
b= Declarer does not rate to have much more in values.
Pard rates to have ♥Qxxxxx(x) , the ♦'s we've seen and nothing else.

[jillybean]

You are south and led the ♦7 taken in dummy (♦A), declarer continued with ♠A then low ♠ to K in hand, ♣J from hand...and so on

[foo]

jillybean2, on Dec 20 2008, 02:17 AM, said:

You are south and led the ♦7 taken in dummy (♦A), declarer continued with ♠A then low ♠ to K in hand, ♣J from hand...and so on

OK, I fixed my earlier post.

If Declarer is ♠KQ96♥x(x)♦K98632♣J(x) , you have zero chance of setting this.

Therefore, let's pretend Declarer is no more shapely than KQ96_??_K986x_Jx

If Declarer has the ♥Q, you have zero chance of setting this.

Therefore you must play for pard to have the ♥Q and for Declarer to have at least 2 ♥'s.

Ruff pard's ♦ honor with the ♠J and underlead the ♥K.

If Declarer has the ♥Q, it does not matter. If pard's got it, and Dummy inserts the ♥J...

[edit] that's not good enough. Dummy can simply rise with the ♥A and then discard Declarer's ♥ losers under high ♣'s. Why did we fly 2nd hand high with the ♣A at the 1st opportunity?

Hmmm. Ruffing with the ♠J and underleading the ♥K is still the best shot I see for setting this.

[vuroth]

Partner has the K♦ foo. Furthermore, partner's high heart discard should show the queen, I think.

My problem is I can't picture how it matters. If declarer is 4432 without the Q♥, she's down no matter what I do (barring something mad like underruffing). If declarer is 4342, 2 hearts go on the clubs and she's making, no matter what I do.

I see diamond ruffs coming, but I can't do anything about them. J♠, return a ♠ still leaves 2 trumps on the board. I know declarer doesn't need 3 diamond ruffs from the bidding.

I can see discards coming on the good clubs, but again, I can't do anything about them.

I can play J♠, K♥, or I can toss a small club. I don't see a difference between the two lines, so I play a club.

[vuroth]

Of course, declarer can never be 4432 from the bidding....

As for 4x4x or 4x5x, I guess that depends on bidding style...

[foo]

vuroth, on Dec 20 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

Partner has the ♦K foo.  Furthermore, partner's high heart discard should show the queen, I think.

My problem is I can't picture how it matters.  If declarer is 4432 without the Q♥, she's down no matter what I do (barring something mad like underruffing).  If declarer is 4342, 2 hearts go on the clubs and she's making, no matter what I do.

I see diamond ruffs coming, but I can't do anything about them.  J♠, return a ♠ still leaves 2 trumps on the board.  I know declarer doesn't need 3 diamond ruffs from the bidding.

I can see discards coming on the good clubs, but again, I can't do anything about them.

I can play J♠, K♥, or I can toss a small club.  I don't see a difference between the two lines, so I play a club.

I posted earlier that pard had to have the ♥Q.

The location of the ♦K is a bit mysterious to me for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The proper lead from KQx, which is what it looks like pard should have when the ♦Q is not covered by Declarer, is the K. Not the Q.

If Declarer started with ♦98*mumble*, then pard's DK is the only thing keeping D's from being established so Declarer can toss some or all of dummy's losing ♥'s under good ♦'s.
If Declarer has ♦K98*mumble*, then Declarer's ♦'s are already established for this purpose.

Of course, dummy already has good ♣'s to discard declarer's losing ♥'s under.

Like you, I'm having a hard time picturing a layout where We can set this, but it looks like the only chance We have is to try and get our 4th trick ASAP.

After ruffing with the ♠J for Our 3rd Trick
=A ♣ is passive; and helps Declarer discard ♥'s
=we have no more ♦'s
=The ♠7 is also passive.
By process of elimination, that leaves a ♥ return. The question is which one.

The book play in ♥'s for Declarer is to play for split honors. we know that the book is right on this board.

It would seem Our best shot is to try and trick Declarer into thinking pard has both ♥K + ♥Q and led ♦'s instead because they were a better suit.

I'm not happy about Our chances, and I'm still not sure I have a proper view of the layout here, but it looks like returning a ♥x is Our best shot.

[foo]

vuroth, on Dec 20 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

I see diamond ruffs coming, but I can't do anything about them. J♠, return a ♠ still leaves 2 trumps on the board.

SJ, return a ♠ will leave dummy with 1. Not 2.

Dummy started with 4 and 2 rounds have been drawn. Your proposed S7 return would be the 3rd round.

[matmat]

jillybean2, on Dec 20 2008, 01:27 AM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: All Scoring: IMP

♠ A832 ♥ AJ3 ♦ A4 ♣ KQT2 ♠ J754 ♥ K6 ♦ 75 ♣ A9864

West  North East  South

 1♣    Pass  1♠    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

D7 DA DT D3
SA ST S6 S4
S2 H8 SK S5
CJ CA C2 C5
D5 D4 DJ D6
DQ D8 ?



Very good point!

sorry. i couldn't look at it that way...

[matmat]

(sometimes i'm dumb)

[rogerclee]

It doesn't matter. At the table, the line of reasoning should resemble something like this:

1) Obviously ruffing low is bad, so I should either ruff with the J or discard a heart or a club.
2) Partner has shown up with ♦KQJT and did not overcall. Partner probably has 4 diamonds but maybe has 5, definitely not 6. This gives declarer 4 or 5 diamonds. Maybe this will not be relevant to the problem, but it is good to keep track of observations you make like this.
3) If I ruff with the Jack what will happen? Declarer will have 4 spade tricks, a spade ruff, two red aces, and 3 clubs. This is 10 tricks, so I will not ruff with the J.
4) Can discarding a club work? No, we know that declarer, who has 4+♦, will be able to pitch all of his hearts but one on the clubs. Then he will play ♥A and ruff a heart, then ruff another diamond in dummy for 10 tricks.
5) Okay, I'll discard a heart, since that is the only play left. Maybe this will cause declarer to lose control when she tries to get back to hand with a heart ruff...

(If you go farther, you will see that discarding a heart will also not work.)

[jillybean]

Ok thanks, this has turned out to be much fuss about nothing.
I wasn't sure what to play and ruffed with the J, my expert pick up partner sent a
??????? to the table but wouldnt offer any further explantion.

I think we we would do better by replacing skill level with favorite ice cream flavors.