[navit]

I read that to respond to a 1 major oppening with 4 card support and 11-12 points I jump 1s-3 s, but with 3 card support I firsr bid a new suit. Please give your opinion and how does this jive with conventions such as splinter bids and jacoby nt

[helene_t]

Splinter bids and Jacoby 2NT are both game forcing so there is no reason to use them with only 3-card support - you can always bid some other suit first and then support later. There may be a 5-4 fit in another suit that plays better than the 5-3 fit, and besides it helps by slam bidding that opener knows responder has at least four trumps.

Limit raises are more tricky since you don't always have the option of bidding another suit first and then supporting without forcing to game:
1♠-2♦
2NT-3♠*

*3♠ is here forcing, so unless 2NT shows extras, you cannot show a limit raise of spades in this way.

If you play the forcing 1NT response, the way to show 3-card support and limit strength is to respond 1NT first and the bid 3 of opener's major next round.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if you require, that a limit raise showes at least card support,
than you need to to add conv. stuff to get this going:

#1 play /semi-) forcing NT, the limit raise with 3 cards goes via
the forcing NT

#2 play that a 2NT response showes inv.+ values with 3 card
support, if just inv., than this showes excactly 3 card, else
4 cards, this goes along with 3NT showing game forcing values
with 3 card support (if i remember it correctly, that is way
it is done in france).

#3 that you need to bid a new suit first, meaning that the seq.
1S - 2C
2S - 3S
is not game forcing anymore with slam interest, but inv.

I would go with #1 or skip the 4 card requirement for the direct limit
raise.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cascade]

helene_t, on Aug 16 2008, 07:53 PM, said:

Splinter bids and Jacoby 2NT are both game forcing so there is no reason to use them with only 3-card support - you can always bid some other suit first and then support later.

This is just not true (except in a semantic sense).

1♥ Pass 2♣ 4♠
Pass Pass ?

are you always going to bid hearts now with some marginal game force?

Its worse with an invite.

[han]

And it is even worse if the opponents jump to 6♠.

[awm]

Obviously many agreements are possible.

In SAYC, 1M-3M shows a limit raise that could be three or four cards. Bidding a new suit and then raising is game forcing.

In 2/1 GF, 1M-3M shows a four-card limit raise. With a three-card limit raise, you start by bidding 1NT (forcing) and then raise at next turn.

There are some (old) versions of standard american where one changes suit and then raises with a limit raise. I think this is in some versions of acol also. In my opinion this method is not very good, because it makes it very difficult to show the game-forcing hands (i.e. 1♠-2♦-2♠ and if 3♠ is not forcing you need to either start making up suits or blast 4♠, either of which makes slam bidding almost impossible).

I'll also note that while there are advantages to distinguishing the three and four card limit raises, there are also pretty major disadvantages to bidding 1NT forcing with a raise. Things get particularly bad when opener jump shifts and your slam auctions get extremely awkward, but there are also issues when opponents intervene over the 1NT call or when opener's rebid helps the opponents on defense. It's possible to play methods where you make an immediate raise with both 3-card and 4-card limit raises and still distinguish the two.

[Lobowolf]

awm, on Aug 16 2008, 12:58 PM, said:

It's possible to play methods where you make an immediate raise with both 3-card and 4-card limit raises and still distinguish the two.

With one of my regular partners, I play that 1M - 3♣ is a 4-card raise, either single raise values (a la Bergen) or limit. Opener rebids 3♦ if he cares which. Over 1M - 3♦ immediately is a 3-card limit raise. Then you don't get nailed with the auctions where your 3-card limit raises start with 1NT and the opponents jump in before you've supported.

[skjaeran]

In my recent partnership we had the possiblility to raise 1M in these non-GF ways:

• Weak 3-card raise (2 in the suit below (2-way bid, weak raise or NAT))

• Invitational 3-card raise, very good 8 to bad 12 (direct raise)

• Bergen raises (6-9/10-12)

• Mini-splinters

Over 1♥, 2♠ showed any mini-Splinter, and 2NT was a relay, 3♣/♦ was Bergen raises
Over 1♠, 3♣ was a mini-Splinter in a minor (3♦ relay), 3♦ Bergen (3♥ range inquiry) and 3♥ a ♥ mini-Splinter