[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

- 1♠ Pass 2♠
Pass 4♠ Pass Pass
Pass

can you give me comments on the 2 spade raise ( at best a poor 6 hcp, could have been down graded to a 1NT forcing response I suppose)

then if you think 2 spades is ok, can you give me comments on the 4 spade raise

if you think 2 spades is diabolical can you tell me what style a 2 spade raise is if it comes under the 8/9 hcp range and is constructive

[kenrexford]

I understand that IMP bidding is aggressive, but Wow!

I'd 1NT...2♠ the South hand.

I can sympathize with the 4♠ call if Opener is expecting a constructive raise, but it still seems a tad aggressive.

South should have this hand plus some shortness, as a minimum. Put the diamond Jack and club King in the same suit and give South a doubleton somewhere, and this is about a dead minimum. Give South, for instance, ♠Qxx ♥KJxx ♦xxxx ♣xx. Now, 4♠ will almost assuredly fail, but it comes close. South will reject the GT by North.

[awm]

The 2♠ bid is pushy. Obviously if you agree to play "constructive raises" where a single raise shows something like 8-10 points in support of opener then this is way under strength.

I don't think constructive raises are a "standard" part of 2/1. However, with the 4333 shape and the 10.5 losers it is still better to start with 1NT (forcing) or even to pass 1♠ rather than raise.

The 4♠ bid is very pushy also (unless playing the aforementioned constructive raises); with only 15 hcp and a six-loser hand there is no particular reason to think you will make game opposite a normal single raise. Give partner ♣A instead of ♣K and there is still no particular play for the spade game.

[ArtK78]

I consider the 2♠ bid on the South hand to be fairly normal. The hand is worth one bid.

I know that some prefer to bid 1NT then 2♠ on minimum hands with no shortness, but that is not my style. To me, 1NT followed by 2♠ is a preference bid, usually made on a doubleton spade.

The 4♠ bid on the North hand is a big overbid. Opposite a normal 2♠ bid, game is extremely remote. At most, the North hand is an invite.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Jun 3 2008, 04:31 PM, said:

I know that some prefer to bid 1NT then 2♠ on minimum hands with no shortness, but that is not my style. To me, 1NT followed by 2♠ is a preference bid, usually made on a doubleton spade.

To everyone it is, but that's the point. If partner thinks you have a doubleton he won't bid as much, but if he thinks you have three there is great risk of him bidding on and going down at the 3 or 4 level.

[fromageGB]

Definitely not a 2♠ raise. I play a 2♠ as 7-10 points, 9 to 10 losers, but even if I was thinking this was borderline, the flat shape would downgrade it.

For me 2♠ is constructive, and one that would not be too averse to partner making a trial bid and playing in 3. A ten and a half loser hand does not come into that category !

With this hand I would bid 1NT and then 2♠, this showing 6-10 with a doubleton (ie preference) or 3 card support weaker than a 7 count 10 loser.

[fromageGB]

awm, on Jun 3 2008, 04:27 PM, said:

I don't think constructive raises are a "standard" part of 2/1.

The 4♠ bid is very pushy also (unless playing the aforementioned constructive raises)...

I am under the impression that constructive raises are the norm in 2/1, but even then the north hand is not a clear game bid. A trial bid is all I'd make.

[ArtK78]

The definition of a single raise of a major suit in Standard (and, therefore, in 2/1) is 6-9 HCP with 3 card support.

If you play higher ranges, fine. You don't have to bid 2♠ on these cards. But that is a matter of your partnership agreement, not Standard bidding.

I play Bergen, so my single raises promise exactly 3 card support unless I have 4333 distribution. So I have less reluctance to bid 2♠ on these cards.

[CSGibson]

South's bidding is fine if you haven't agreed to play constructive raises. North needs to make a game try, not blast.

[kenrexford]

ArtK78, on Jun 3 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

The definition of a single raise of a major suit in Standard (and, therefore, in 2/1) is 6-9 HCP with 3 card support.

This is about the dumbest logic argument I've seen in a while.

Um...

"Standard" does not equal "2/1," unless you are re-naming "2/1" as "Standard."

If you do that, then your initial premise that "Standard," meaning "2/1," has a definition of a single raise as 6-9 is incorrect.

The typical idea is that systems (like 2/1 and K-S) which employ a forcing 1NT call very typically use a constructive raise approach. That may not be your preference, but it is the "typical" agreement, at least as I understand it.

I just checked "Two Over One Game Force," the 1991 edition that I have, wherein Hardy expressed a distaste for constructive raises. A more modern approach, BWS 2001, shows "moderately constructive," however. Bridge Base Advanced, which is probably quite relevant here, has a single raise as a constructive raise.

Thus, there is a debate. There is not a definition.

[blackshoe]

kenrexford, on Jun 3 2008, 09:57 PM, said:

"Standard" does not equal "2/1," unless you are re-naming "2/1" as "Standard."

Why not? Max Hardy did.

Don't disagree with the rest of your post - though like Max, I don't like constructive raises much either.

[SoTired]

I don't use "Standard" except for those things that Goren advocated and still in wide practice today. I think a less charged word is "Common" for those things that most people play.

[andy_h]

If constructive raises were agreed, then South's hand isn't worth one so I'd take the 1NT-->2S route.

[neilkaz]

Responder's hand is trashy but if you pass 1♠ you're missing some games unless you play a system that can stretch to open 2♣, but even then you can miss a game. That being said, if the fitting Q of trumps were in H, I'd not criticize a pass.

Responder has no ruffing values and 6 scattered HCP and really should go out of his way to not excite opner. Due to no ruffing values, even if not playing constructive raises, I'd likely try 1NTF then 2♠ which should end the auction unless the opps come in.

Opener's jump to 4♠ is too pushy for sure ! Stiff aces sometimes are opposite something like Qxxx or other useless holdings, and the hand just isn't good enough to expect to make 4♠ opposite a minimum raise. I'd make a game try after 2♠.

[brianshark]

I might have lied with the south hand and shown it as a doubleton support. But 2♠ is fine. North's jump to game is too pushy.