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Support?

#1 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-10, 18:11

Scoring: IMP

1S- (1NT) - ??


What's your call?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-March-10, 18:17

Maybe its wimpy, but I'm passing...

I think that I have OK defensive values and an obvious lead versus NT, however, I'm not nearly strong enough to double.

Yes, we have an eight card fit, but I have no ruffing values. Moreover, I don't want partner to do something silly if I show a weak offensively oriented hand.
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-10, 18:47

pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass
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#4 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2008-March-10, 18:48

why should we bid 2♠?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#5 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2008-March-10, 19:42

gwnn, on Mar 10 2008, 07:48 PM, said:

why should we bid 2♠?

To win imps?

Can a direct 2♠ bid be constructive with fit? Of course not, you could wack 1NT if you had that.

Robson/Segal suggest the following....

1♠-(1NT)-?
  • 2♣ = both majors (hearts plus ♠ support)
  • 2♦ soundish major raise
  • 2♠ preemptive raise (up to 7 hcp)
To see their treatment, see page 43 of their text. One might ask if 3343 is satisfactory for a "preemptive raise". Ok, that is a reasonable question. If they were vul and we were not it is 100% 2♠ bid. If we were vulnerable and they were not, it would be 100% pass for me. Here with both vul, it is much closer to 2♠ to pass in my opinion, and i would bid 2♠ if parnter and i had agreed to robison/segal guidelines. Obviously if you don't have 2♣ or 2♦ to show goodish raise, 2♠ is out of the question.
--Ben--

#6 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2008-March-10, 19:52

inquiry, on Mar 11 2008, 03:42 AM, said:

gwnn, on Mar 10 2008, 07:48 PM, said:

why should we bid 2♠?

To win imps?

Can a direct 2♠ bid be constructive with fit? Of course not, you could wack 1NT if you had that.

Robson/Segal suggest the following....

1♠-(1NT)-?
  • 2♣ = both majors (hearts plus ♠ support)


  • 2♦ soundish major raise


  • 2♠ preemptive raise (up to 7 hcp)
To see their treatment, see page 43 of their text. One might ask if 3343 is satisfactory for a "preemptive raise". Ok, that is a reasonable question. If they were vul and we were not it is 100% 2♠ bid. If we were vulnerable and they were not, it would be 100% pass for me. Here with both vul, it is much closer to 2♠ to pass in my opinion, and i would bid 2♠ if parnter and i had agreed to robison/segal guidelines. Obviously if you don't have 2♣ or 2♦ to show goodish raise, 2♠ is out of the question.

I know and play that exact treatment, but even subtly implying they would advocate 2♠ on this hand is way off IMHO. Their whole book is about ODR and when to bid and what to bid and when NOT to bid and how NOT to bid, and this hand has a perfectly zero ODR (ok zero ODR would be a small doubleton spade, but it's close to zero nevertheless) and is a textbook pass.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#7 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-March-10, 19:59

I support....the passers.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#8 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-10, 20:24

Ben there are just way too many warning signs here. We know RHO has some spades, it's not so unlikely he has a stack of 4 decent ones, and if that is the case LHO is going to make a t/o X and RHO is going to pass way too often. How do you feel in 2S X when you have an ace (ie defense) and theres no reason to suspect they have a game? You know everything is offside, etc, I would expect it to be a bloodbath. Even if you don't get Xed in 2S I see no reason to think that you will not go for 200 or 300 undoubled opposite a normal 13-14 count with pard. And what about the possibility of pard misjudging the auction and competing incorrectly? Sure 2S does not show a good hand but theres a world of difference between this and a hand like Axx x xxxxx xxxx or similar.

And really what are you gaining? Sure you gain a little in preemption, but if the opps have a game they will still find the right spot. If they were making 1N you probably just go down in 2S. Maybe you push them to 3 of a minor or something when they would have otherwise played 1N and maybe that goes down, but that's not a very big gain considering you give up a number pretty often here.

There is a big difference in raising partner uncontested and raising partner when the guy on your right has bid NT indicating some length/strength in partners suit, with his honors being in front of our xxx.
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#9 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-March-11, 04:08

What do we stand to gain? Well, if we pass, it might go

1♠ (1NT) pass pass
pass

or

1♠ (1NT) pass (2♦)
pass (2♥) ??

and now we might have lost competition or, in the 2nd case, don't know whether to compete with 2♠ or pass because our LHO didn't clear up the issue.

If we bid, it might go

1♠ (1NT) 2♠ ??

and now it's LHO who's guessing whether to compete or not. Anyway, the point is if we decide not to bid, we'll have to keep quiet unless pard makes some noise.

I think it's close and depends on how serious pard thinks we are. I would probably bid NV and pass V, but tactical factors might come in. Also, there's the danger of pard getting happy because he can very well have a medium strength hand.
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#10 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-11, 10:46

whereagles, on Mar 11 2008, 05:08 AM, said:

If we bid, it might go

1♠ (1NT) 2♠ ??

Yes, very likely. :)
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#11 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-11, 10:52

inquiry, on Mar 10 2008, 05:42 PM, said:

Robson/Segal suggest the following....

Ben, dammit already, don't be pimping some book on the forums.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
"Phil" on BBO
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#12 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-11, 10:53

I pass. Thank goodness we know what to lead.
"Phil" on BBO
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#13 User is offline   brianshark 

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Posted 2008-March-11, 12:07

If there ever was a time you had an 8 card fit but defending 1NT was best, it was now.
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.
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#14 User is offline   goobers 

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Posted 2008-March-11, 12:36

We got a bad score last night on this exact same auction, and I didn't raise holding Txx xx xxxx Qxxx. Is everyone also passing at MPs?
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