[jonottawa]

I'm a former member of the NRA. I've never owned a gun. I fired an M-16 in ROTC, but that's it.

I've lived in Texas for 6 years and haven't seen anyone with a gun who wasn't a cop/security guard. (Okay, Austin isn't really Texas, but still.) Yeah, I probably missed a few concealed weapons, but it's not like this is the Wild West or something.

Cars, alcohol and cigarettes each kill way more people than handguns ever thought about killing. We gonna ban those too?

I'd argue that the real purpose of the 2nd amendment was to make the federal government think twice before it did anything that wasn't in the public interest or that interfered with 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.' That purpose has long since been rendered obsolete by the military-industrial complex and the pansification of most Americans.

If you want strict gun laws, repeal the 2nd amendment, don't ignore it. We've gone way too far down the 'if you don't like a law, ignore it' path for my taste.

"Tyranny is the exercise of some power over a man, which is not warranted by law, or necessary for the public safety. A people can never be deprived of their liberties, while they retain in their own hands, a power sufficient to any other power in the state." - Noah Webster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendm...es_Constitution

http://www.teachingamericanhistory.org/lib...p?document=1782

[mike777]

"Cars, alcohol and cigarettes each kill way more people than handguns ever thought about killing. We gonna ban those too?"

Yes...that is a good start but granted only a start.

"I've lived in Texas for 6 years and haven't seen anyone with a gun who wasn't a cop/security guard"

Heck I have seen people with their own personal jet fighters and working tanks and much much more......let alone 300 millions guns, etc....

[dicklont]

40 Mph? On a road like that? Is there loose cattle running around or something?
Getting a speed ticket there would really feel like a rip off.

I like to play by the traffic rules and always watch my speed because I believe it is safest for me and for others. But can we expect some rational rules to play by?

[mike777]

With all the abuse of children and innocents going on in the home...when can we see cameras from Homeland security in the home to protect those who need it? Some rights must be more important than others.
If guns kill, I hate to to see all the crime in homes but......????

If Homeland security cannot protect the home why bother with that name?

[Winstonm]

Quote

However, UHP officials on Friday announced Gardner's actions were justified when he shocked Jared Massey twice during the Sept. 14 incident in Uintah County.

Gardner's actions "were lawful and reasonable under the circumstances," UHP Superintendent

[jtfanclub]

Winstonm, on Dec 2 2007, 11:08 AM, said:

Quote

However, UHP officials on Friday announced Gardner's actions were justified when he shocked Jared Massey twice during the Sept. 14 incident in Uintah County.

Gardner's actions "were lawful and reasonable under the circumstances," UHP Superintendent

Twice?

Did I miss something?

[Gerben42]

Quote

Cars, alcohol and cigarettes each kill way more people than handguns ever thought about killing. We gonna ban those too?

I think the punishment for drunk driving are still way too mild. Drunk driving = deliberately endangering other people's lives for your own convenience of not drinking before driving or calling a taxi.

No need to ban alcohol itself. Just hold people responsible for their actions while under influence of it.

Cigarettes the same. If you want to kill yourself by smoking go ahead, but you should be forced to make very sure you don't harm someone else. And your health insurance doesn't have to pay for any damage you voluntarily caused to yourself.

Cars: To drive a car you need to take a test. What is also important, you don't get into a car with the intention to harm anyone.

Big difference

Guns are designed to kill whatever is in front of them when the user chooses to. These weapons shall not be handed out lightly. A good rule is if you want one, you're probably not the right person to have one.

A good police officer will not want to have a gun but will see the necessity to have one and will use it only as a last resort. This responsibility requires thorough training. Without this training, no gun.

[mike777]

I do not know about your country but here in the USA our prisons are overflowing, our Justice system is overflowing and this has been true for decades and decades.
We seldom talk about this in public but basically, we, have chosen to ignore alot of crime andbe very selective on who we put in prison and in the justice system and we still cannot handle all the cases we do choose to enforce.

Just for a tiny example see all the Calif cases where people serve 81 minutes in jail for a sentence of 30 days.

In my tiny usa town I estimate the each prosecutor handle around 20,000 cases a year. There is no way we have prisons or courts for a tiny fraction of these cases.
Yes this sounds like we let them go as fast as the police arrest them or we tell the police do not bother.

Now you want to enforce even more laws....

btw as a side note, how many illegal aliens are in your country? What do you do with them? arrest them, ignore them or do the humane thing and give them free education and health care and a driver license?

[Gerben42]

Quote

Now you want to enforce even more laws....smile.gif

I prefer to have different laws. Laws that save people's lives rather than laws that complicate people's lives. If I would be president of the USA, I would:

Go tough on gun control and use the US army to fight crime in the country the tough way and disarm the organized crime and gangs.

No one would ever elect me, I'm afraid.

Quote

how many illegal aliens are in your country? What do you do with them?

It is estimated in Germany about 1 million (total population: 82 million). What happens to them? They send them back when they are discovered, usually. This is a big problem everywhere I guess.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Dec 3 2007, 02:51 PM, said:

I do not know about your country but here in the USA are prisons are overflowing, our Justice system is overflowing and this has been true for decades and decades.
We seldom talk about this in public but basically, we, have chosen to ignore alot of crime andbe very selective on who we put in prison and in the justice system and we still cannot handle all the cases we do choose to enforce.

Just for a tiny example see all the Calif cases where people serve 81 minutes in jail for a sentence of 30 days.

In my tiny usa town I estimate the each prosecutor handle around 20,000 cases a year. There is no way we have prisons or courts for a tiny fraction of these cases.
Yes this sounds like we let them go as fast as the police arrest them or we tell the police do not bother.

Now you want to enforce even more laws....

btw as a side note, how many illegal aliens are in your country? What do you do with them? arrest them, ignore them or do the humane thing and give them free education and health care and a driver license?

One reason for the overflow in the prison system is the tendency in the US to imprison a lot of offenders who, in other jurisdictions, would receive either no prison term at all or a much reduced term. Add to this the relative unavailability of parole, and the result is far longer prison terms than in most countries... and so far more people in prison at any given time.

Then factor in:

1) economic inequality
2) the existence of a near-permanent underclass, where unless one is remarkably gifted athletically, the most attractive role model is the local thug/gang member
3) refusal to afford treatment or diversion as alternatives to incarceration for drug-related crime
4) the war on drugs as a whole... criminalizing conduct that to many (especially younger) people seems morally indistinguishable from drinking alcohol and arguably safer than smoking tobacco
5) a relentless consumerism attitude in the media, so that young people grow up thinking that ownership of certain objects is equivalent to success, or warrants 'respect'

Now, the USA is hardly the only country in the western world struggling with these issues, but it seems to me, as an outsider, that there are elements in the basic American approach to life that makes it politically infeasible to address these issues as they should be addressed. The US philosophy, which perhaps is more of a mythos than a reality, stresses individual responsibility, and frowns upon the notion that the state should help rather than punish.

Allievate the enormous and rapidly growing gulf between rich and poor, inculcate the attitude that prevention may be more effective than punishment, and provide meaningful re-education to young offenders (plus meaningful help after the education) and maybe, over decades, the US prison population will diminish.

Other western countries, all of which share many of the same problems, have much lower incarceration rates without higher crime rates, but in societies where there is a significant belief in the neccessity of governmental intervention in the causes and treatment of social ills, not merely the after-the-fact punishment of offenders.

BTW, if you believe that tough prison sentencing helps to reduce crime rates, as some prominent US politicians announce when bragging of their record or attacking a more liberal opponent: read Freakonomics... the authors make a convincing case that most of the drop in crime rates experienced in the 1990s in major US cities arose as a result of Roe v Wade in 1972

[mike777]

"It is estimated in Germany about 1 million (total population: 82 million). What happens to them? They send them back when they are discovered, usually. This is a big problem everywhere I guess."

1) Is it really that hard to discover 1 million people or do you basically turn a blind eye?
2) We have 12 million out of 300 million. The Republicans(not Bush) seem basically trying to commit political suicide on the issue while the Democrats ignore it.