[kfay]

Edited:

Scoring: IMP

---

The contract is 4♥ and you receive a lead of the ♠K. Plan the play.

[FrancesHinden]

I would like to say here that I don't know what the right line is.

I know what the problem is, but that's a different matter.

p.s. what was the auction? That may help.

[kfay]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 14 2007, 12:29 PM, said:

p.s. what was the auction? That may help.

The opps never bid anything. I don't remember the auction because this is actually a hand on which I defended and changed a card to make it more interesting. So too much stuff for me to remember .


Edit: I think it was something typical like 1♣-1♥-3♥-4♥. Nothing interesting whatever it was, though.

[pclayton]

Can we assume that North is the declarer here and the hand diagram is upside down?

A few points:

1. You probably need the club hook to work for this to roll.

2. You'd like to end in dummy after trump are drawn for the club finesse. Therefore, play a high heart out of hand, followed by a heart to board (assuming hearts are 3-2). If they duck a 2nd time you can go about your business and take the club hook. If they win the heart early, you can draw the 3rd round on the table.

3. You don't need a diamond trick, although there may be reasons to knock it out prior to drawing trump. Also, may East duck not knowing the position.

The big question is whether or not we win the 1st trick. I need to think about this more and have to head out.

[vuroth]

Had a line, but hand got edited!

[pclayton]

wtf? I leave for 30 minutes and the hand morphs.

[whereagles]

After edition:

I'll let ♠K make (who knows, maybe it will break communications) and follow-up with pulling trumps. I need ♣K onside anyway, so I'll play for that after trumps are out.

[kfay]

pclayton, on Nov 14 2007, 01:14 PM, said:

wtf? I leave for 30 minutes and the hand morphs.

yeah yeah, sorry about that i was just putting it up while in at work today and didn't spend a lot of time trying to remember what the hand was exactly. my bad. anyways this is the hand.

still seems to me to be basically the same problem, though, with the points you brought up still relevant.

[kenberg]

I suppose that if the lead is from Kx I am going down no matter what I do. So suppose not. If it is from KQx it doesn't matter all that much when I take the A. If it is from KQxx then it may matter. If rho holds both red aces and lho holds the king of clubs then I make it if I duck and go down if I put up the ace. Just the reverse if the lead is from KQxxx and the remaining cards lie the same, but I guess I duck.

Seems that I need a lot, no matter what. But I duck and let a continuation ride to my J, or I let a club shift ride to my J.


If something cleverer is required, I'll be happy to learn it.

[pclayton]

kfay, on Nov 14 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 14 2007, 01:14 PM, said:

wtf? I leave for 30 minutes and the hand morphs.

yeah yeah, sorry about that i was just putting it up while in at work today and didn't spend a lot of time trying to remember what the hand was exactly. my bad. anyways this is the hand.

still seems to me to be basically the same problem, though, with the points you brought up still relevant.

Sort of.

I hedged on whether or not we need the club hook and with the new diagram I think we definitely do need it to work with clubs 5-2

With the new diagram it looks West is on lead with the K♠. Ducking the spade makes a lot more sense now, since i really don't care if they are 3-3 or 4-2. 5 spades seems unlikely since West didn't overcall.

If they continue with another spade, win and hope that East has both red aces. This doesn't seem like a bad parlay since we need West to hold the ♣K. With clubs now 5-2 we may need to ruff a club, so I want to be in dummy earlier rather than later. Lead a heart to the 9 or Jack and play the ♣J, planning on ruffing a club in case they are 4-2.

Its funny, if North was declarer and East led the ♠K, I was about to berate Kevin for putting this in the BI section . Ducking the spade at T1 seems like a good BI theme with West on lead.

[kfay]

Obviously we're losing a spade a diamond and a heart on this hand. I don't really see any reason why we should duck a spade other than that maybe it allows us to delay thinking about the hand... but this proves to be costly when spades are 4-2 pretty much all the time (someone ruffs a spade). We need the ♣K onside (and it is). I think it's clear to go up with the A at T1 since that's not going to cost us anything whereas ducking can.


Let's assume that we go up with the A and that the king of clubs is onside. What's the plan now?

(since the play has now become infinitely easier--but still not a no-brainer--experts should hide their solutions possibly.

[cherdano]

kfay, on Nov 14 2007, 02:03 PM, said:

Obviously we're losing a spade a diamond and a heart on this hand. I don't really see any reason why we should duck a spade other than that maybe it allows us to delay thinking about the hand... but this proves to be costly when spades are 4-2 pretty much all the time (someone ruffs a spade). We need the ♣Q onside (and it is). I think it's clear to go up with the A at T1 since that's not going to cost us anything whereas ducking can.


Let's assume that we go up with the A and that the queen of clubs is onside. What's the plan now?

(since the play has now become infinitely easier--but still not a no-brainer--experts should hide their solutions possibly.

No, if you duck the spade you are less likely to concede a spade ruff. If spades are 4-2 and the defend with doubleton spade has both aces, they get a ruff if you win the first trick, but they don't if you don't.

[pclayton]

kfay, on Nov 14 2007, 12:03 PM, said:

Obviously we're losing a spade a diamond and a heart on this hand.  I don't really see any reason why we should duck  a spade other than that maybe it allows us to delay thinking about the hand... but this proves to be costly when spades are 4-2 pretty much all the time (someone ruffs a spade).  We need the ♣K onside (and it is).  I think it's clear to go up with the A at T1 since that's not going to cost us anything whereas ducking can. 


Let's assume that we go up with the A and that the king of clubs is onside.  What's the plan now?

(since the play has now become infinitely easier--but still not a no-brainer--experts should hide their solutions possibly.

No.

If spades are 4-2 and the red aces are in the other hand, ducking the spade is the only way to make this assuming the ♣K is onside.

(Just saw Arend's analysis. Boy he's a fine player, isn't he? )

[kfay]

pclayton, on Nov 14 2007, 03:09 PM, said:

No.

If spades are 4-2 and the red aces are in the other hand, ducking the spade is the only way to make this assuming the ♣K is onside.

Damn. That's obvious. Clearly this problem isn't the neat problem that I thought it was.

But! to make it so... let's say that LHO has ♠KQ tight.

[johnallen]

My thoughts:

Assuming K♣ on side, we hope clubs are 3-3. If Kxxx-xx, we lose the King anyway. If Kx-8xxx, we lose to the 8 if west covers the J♣ lead and we make the mistake of cashing clubs in dummy (throwing away the 9♣ winner).

If west covers J♣, we win with the A and lead low to our 9♣ winner, then get back to dummy with a carefully preserved trump entry to cash the rest of the clubs.

If west doesn't cover the J, then repeat the finesse with the 9 and overtake with the 10. Cash the A, and the K better fall or we were never going to run the clubs. If the K doesn't fall, lead a small diamond, and hope the A is with east and he takes it. We can then use the KQ to pitch spades in dummy and establish the J or 10. There is more to think through. Good problem.

Other thoughts?

[kenberg]

kfay, on Nov 14 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 14 2007, 03:09 PM, said:

No.

If spades are 4-2 and the red aces are in the other hand, ducking the spade is the only way to make this assuming the ♣K is onside.

Damn. That's obvious. Clearly this problem isn't the neat problem that I thought it was.

But! to make it so... let's say that LHO has ♠KQ tight.

Unless he shows me his cards, I guess I go down. Since I and others duck to mildly improve out chances when the lead is from KQxx, we duck, he continues, and then, unless we are lucky, he gets his ruff.

If he shows me his cards, and they are KQ/xxx/Axxx/Kxxx I won't duck.