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Assign the blame not for the weak of hearts
#1
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Posted 2007-November-04, 02:13
Apportion the blame for this disaster (the field was not in 6♣, even though it makes, but rather in 3NT making).
#2 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-November-04, 02:39
If I got the auction right, north Xed 2C and later bid 4H, south just bidding 2H in response to his partner's t/o X. How is it possible to assign less than 100 % blame to north? He took a flyer, a unilateral dumb one at that, and went for a digit.
#3
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Posted 2007-November-04, 02:41
90% N, 10% S.
X is silly.
2H shows extras. good hand, but nothing great opposite a passed hand. i guess it's just competing
P over 3c and 4h over 3n are inconsistent and bad.
btw, 6C may make, but looking at the defenders' hands, it's a terrible contract...
X is silly.
2H shows extras. good hand, but nothing great opposite a passed hand. i guess it's just competing
P over 3c and 4h over 3n are inconsistent and bad.
btw, 6C may make, but looking at the defenders' hands, it's a terrible contract...
#4
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Posted 2007-November-04, 03:16
Agree with Justin. 2H by south looks normal, just telling partner about the fit. But 100% goes to North. 4H is suicide, as he bid his hand 4 times with p, x, p, then 4h..(don't really favour N's x though)
- Andy -
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#5
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Posted 2007-November-04, 03:21
matmat, on Nov 4 2007, 09:41 AM, said:
90% N, 10% S.
X is silly.
2H shows extras. good hand, but nothing great opposite a passed hand. i guess it's just competing
X is silly.
2H shows extras. good hand, but nothing great opposite a passed hand. i guess it's just competing
2♥ show no values at all. It's just preference. I think south maybe should pass 2♣ instead of bidding 2♥ since north could be 3-5 in the reds, but this isn't clear at all.
However, bidding 4♥ on three small opposite a partner who showed no interest at all is insane to me. North 100+% of the blame, south absolutely innocent.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#6 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-November-04, 03:37
skaeran, on Nov 4 2007, 04:21 AM, said:
matmat, on Nov 4 2007, 09:41 AM, said:
90% N, 10% S.
X is silly.
2H shows extras. good hand, but nothing great opposite a passed hand. i guess it's just competing
X is silly.
2H shows extras. good hand, but nothing great opposite a passed hand. i guess it's just competing
2♥ show no values at all. It's just preference. I think south maybe should pass 2♣ instead of bidding 2♥ since north could be 3-5 in the reds, but this isn't clear at all.
agree with this totally. Not sure if it's right to pass, partner could be 3-5 in the reds but also could be 4-4 (and will bid 2D over the pass with that too).
#7
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Posted 2007-November-04, 03:40
When dummy flops, is not the correct question "Where are the cards you held during the auction?"?
You must know the rules well - so that you may break them wisely!
#8
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Posted 2007-November-04, 03:56
skaeran, on Nov 4 2007, 04:21 AM, said:
matmat, on Nov 4 2007, 09:41 AM, said:
2H shows extras.
2♥ show no values at all.
I guess it is the above that was my main question, what does the 2♥ bid (by a passed hand) here mean when there has been a XX after the t/o X (also by a passed hand)? I agree North (me) rightly deserves most of the blame (this was really not a good day overall for my bridge bidding and play). But is 2♥ freely bid over the XX really not showing extra shape? I must admit I was surprised to see 4333 with 4 hearts to the QT given the free bid over the XX.
#9 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-November-04, 04:30
No, the 2H bid does not show any values or shape.
Let me ask, if you were 5431 what would you bid over a pass by partner?
If your answer was 2S, how can partner pass with 2434 and 0 points? He would be forced to bid 2H with that shape. If it is something other than 2S, how do you find spades opposite a 3334 yarb?
In general over value showing redoubles the important thing is not to show values, it's to find the best fit since you're in danger of getting doubled. This should be especially true when you have both passed already, and have no chance of making a game.
I think you missed one important inference in this auction. Partner passed over the 1C opener. He cannot have 5 hearts and a good hand.
Let me ask, if you were 5431 what would you bid over a pass by partner?
If your answer was 2S, how can partner pass with 2434 and 0 points? He would be forced to bid 2H with that shape. If it is something other than 2S, how do you find spades opposite a 3334 yarb?
In general over value showing redoubles the important thing is not to show values, it's to find the best fit since you're in danger of getting doubled. This should be especially true when you have both passed already, and have no chance of making a game.
I think you missed one important inference in this auction. Partner passed over the 1C opener. He cannot have 5 hearts and a good hand.
#10
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Posted 2007-November-04, 04:32
Mbodell, on Nov 4 2007, 10:56 AM, said:
skaeran, on Nov 4 2007, 04:21 AM, said:
matmat, on Nov 4 2007, 09:41 AM, said:
2H shows extras.
2♥ show no values at all.
I guess it is the above that was my main question, what does the 2♥ bid (by a passed hand) here mean when there has been a XX after the t/o X (also by a passed hand)? I agree North (me) rightly deserves most of the blame (this was really not a good day overall for my bridge bidding and play). But is 2♥ freely bid over the XX really not showing extra shape? I must admit I was surprised to see 4333 with 4 hearts to the QT given the free bid over the XX.
2♥ only shows preference. And it can't guarantee more than 4. It would be stupid to pass with 3424, since you'd have no idea whether partner has 4441/3451/4351 or whatever after pass, pass 2♦. It was unlucky to find partner with 3433, but not sensational IMO. And even if he had 5 he would obviously be balanced or minimum since he bid 2♥ and not 3♥. Thus bidding over 3NT was terrible anyway.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#11 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-November-04, 04:39
Not to lay it on you, you made a mistake and are obviously trying to learn, but the main flaw with your bid was:
You have the minimum number of hearts possible, and (less than) the minimum number of hearts for your auction. So basically you have already bid your hand. A rule I had to be told constantly was "don't bid the same values twice" the reason being if this is what we need for 4H to be a good save, partner would have taken the save.
Above all else this should stop you from bidding again.
You have the minimum number of hearts possible, and (less than) the minimum number of hearts for your auction. So basically you have already bid your hand. A rule I had to be told constantly was "don't bid the same values twice" the reason being if this is what we need for 4H to be a good save, partner would have taken the save.
Above all else this should stop you from bidding again.
#12
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Posted 2007-November-04, 06:49
Jeez, north 100% only because there is no more available to assign to him.
The reasons why have all been expressed by others, but let me add another view as well. Didn't the double of two clubs express more value and shape than he had? IF a "save" against 3NT was right, wouldn't it be his partner who should be taking the flyer? Did north have anything more than what he suggested with his first double? In fact, he had less shape and less value. He was lucky he only went for 1100, his partner could have had a worse hand, say the AJxx of clubs, four spades and a singleton small diamond instead of diamond ACE.
North was highly undisciplined.
The reasons why have all been expressed by others, but let me add another view as well. Didn't the double of two clubs express more value and shape than he had? IF a "save" against 3NT was right, wouldn't it be his partner who should be taking the flyer? Did north have anything more than what he suggested with his first double? In fact, he had less shape and less value. He was lucky he only went for 1100, his partner could have had a worse hand, say the AJxx of clubs, four spades and a singleton small diamond instead of diamond ACE.
North was highly undisciplined.
--Ben--
#13
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Posted 2007-November-04, 07:40
Hi,
North.
One may discuss the first t/o by North,
but after that one may believe he did bid
his hand completly.
If North voices any complain about Souths
bidding in later boards, South should just kill
him. After this auction North is dead for the
remaining boards, i.e. if South commands
"Jump" North just is entiled to ask "How high".
With kind regards
Marlowe
North.
One may discuss the first t/o by North,
but after that one may believe he did bid
his hand completly.
If North voices any complain about Souths
bidding in later boards, South should just kill
him. After this auction North is dead for the
remaining boards, i.e. if South commands
"Jump" North just is entiled to ask "How high".
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#14
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Posted 2007-November-04, 10:05
How could anyone give south any blame at all? North 100%
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#15
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Posted 2007-November-04, 10:16
Yep, North 100%.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#16
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Posted 2007-November-04, 15:33
Hannie, on Nov 4 2007, 11:16 AM, said:
Yep, North 100%.
North 100% and wondering if he was sober !! Simply awful bidding, inspite of the vul and rightfully punished.
.. neilkaz ..
#17
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Posted 2007-November-04, 16:17
Jlall, on Nov 4 2007, 05:30 AM, said:
No, the 2H bid does not show any values or shape.
Let me ask, if you were 5431 what would you bid over a pass by partner?
If your answer was 2S, how can partner pass with 2434 and 0 points? He would be forced to bid 2H with that shape. If it is something other than 2S, how do you find spades opposite a 3334 yarb?
Let me ask, if you were 5431 what would you bid over a pass by partner?
If your answer was 2S, how can partner pass with 2434 and 0 points? He would be forced to bid 2H with that shape. If it is something other than 2S, how do you find spades opposite a 3334 yarb?
If partner passed and I had 5431 I'd bid hearts, since after the value showing redouble I'd be scrambling and assume that my dbl gives at least two places to play so with 4243 partner could correct to 2S but if 3334 we'd play in the 4-3 fit and not the 5-3 fit.
But I have more than learned my lesson and will be quick with the green cards in the future.
#18
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Posted 2007-November-04, 18:34
South gets 100% blame for playing with North. 
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Page 1 of 1
W - N - E - S
P P 1♣* P
2♣ X XX 2♥
3♣ P 3NT P
P 4♥ X P
P P
* 1♣ could be short
result -5 for -1100