[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ Q73 ♥ AKJT2 ♦ Q643 ♣ 3

West North East South

 -     1♠    2♣    3♣
 Pass  3NT   Pass  ?  

Pickup partner, agreed SAYC what ever that is.
What is 3nt and what is your bid?

[han]

3NT is a suggestion to play there. With shortness I think it is right to correct to 4S.

[vuroth]

5/3 fit in a major, at IMPs, why would you EVER prefer 3NT?

I get bidding 3NT on the way if you're 4333, but once you have a 5/3 confirmed fit it just makes less sense to me.

V

[han]

There are many hands where 3NT may play better. As a beginner it may be better not to think about it but as you become more advanced you start to see on which hands 3NT is better than 4M.

[vuroth]

Fair enough.

[jtfanclub]

vuroth, on Oct 30 2007, 01:41 PM, said:

5/3 fit in a major, at IMPs, why would you EVER prefer 3NT?

I get bidding 3NT on the way if you're 4333, but once you have a 5/3 confirmed fit it just makes less sense to me.

V

Two good reasons to bid 3NT:

1) It may be the right place to play, especially if partner is 4333.

2) It helps describe your hand, in case your partner's making a slam try and not a game try.

I suppose I should bid 4♠ here. I am very tempted to bid 4♣ instead, then sign off in 4♠ if partner doesn't. I'm on the upper range of an invite, and I'm not completely convinced that slam is impossible.

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♠    2♣    3♣
 Pass  3NT   Pass  ?

I was wondering about slam and completely misunderstood 3nt.

[neilkaz]

With PD being a "SAYC" pickup, I think there's a good chance that he's missunderstood your 3♣ as a request to bid 3NT with a stopper, rather than the intended LROB (limit raise or better). PD may only have a single stopper and I think it is much more likely that 4♠ is a superior contract to 3NT here.

Now assuming PD knows 3♣ is limit+ his 3NT accepts game and offers you a choice between 3NT and 4♠ noting that from where he sits he thinks 3NT may be better. In this case, with a stiff ♣ I'd overrule him at pull it and if 100% certain he knows you have at least card ♠ support I'd pull to 4♥ since if he has just the right cards, slam is possible.

EDIT: pulling 3NT to 4♣ is also possible with 2nd round control, but I still think PD has missunderstood your 3♣ Q=LROB. However, if PD's stopper isn't the ace he may have wasted values in ♣ opposite your stiff and I think 4♠ is the safer choice.

However, I am playing it safe here with a pickup since I have doubts that he knows what I meant by 3♣ and just pulling to 4♠. With that in mind, and even with Q=LROB agreed, I don't care for the 3♣ bid with this hand for several reasons.

It is nice to have conventions to play, but with responder's hand, a full GF to me, I clearly prefer to bid 2♥ with my fine 5 card suit and then when I force to game or bid game in ♠ later on, PD knows that I have GF values and that I likely don't have 4 card support. 3♣ can be bid with 3 card support on some hands, but here natural bidding seems better to me and will confuse PD less and may lead to a good slam if opener has the right cards.

.. neilkaz ..

[neilkaz]

jillybean2, on Oct 30 2007, 02:06 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♠    2♣    3♣
 Pass  3NT   Pass  ?

I was wondering about slam and completely misunderstood 3nt.

As I expected, your pickup seems to have missunderstood your 3♣. Anyhow, I sure won't pass 3NT with your hand and if wondering about slam, bid something below 4♠.

Would a pickup leave you in 4♥ ? I doubt it but I've seen stranger things from confused pickups. Surely he won't leave you in 4♣ and hopefully won't incorrectly bid above 4♠.

SAYC pickups really aren't likely to play 3NT as showing serious or semi serious slam ambitions. Looking at your hand after 3NT, you need PD to have significant extras for slam, I think. With that in mind and since you know you have a 5-3 fit and a stiff and 12 HCP, just carry on to the normal 4♠.

[keylime]

I strongly, strongly, strongly, prefer a natural, FORCING 2♥ here. You hand is a delay support hand and you need to see where pard lives. Once they rebid 2NT to show a club stop, you still need to make sure that they didn't rebid 2NT on the 18-19 hand type. Now trot out 3♦, following up with 4♠ once they limit themselves again with 3NT.

[gwnn]

keylime, on Oct 30 2007, 10:11 PM, said:

I strongly, strongly, strongly, prefer a natural, FORCING 2♥ here.

Me too

[helene_t]

3♣ is GF in SAYC, I think, since 3♠ would be the limit raise. Hence 3NT does not show extras. You should not think of slam, just correct to 4♠.

I don't like p's 3NT. He has a single club stopper and a singleton. He should just bid 3♠ or 4♠.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Oct 30 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

3♣ is GF in SAYC, I think, since 3♠ would be the limit raise. Hence 3NT does not show extras. You should not think of slam, just correct to 4♠.

I don't like p's 3NT. He has a single club stopper and a singleton. He should just bid 3♠ or 4♠.

I don't think so...3♠ should be a 4 card limit raise, 3♣ should be a 3 card limit raise or prep for a slam try in SAYC.

At least, that's how I learned it.

[jillybean]

Agree, 3♣ is a 3card limit raise as I play it.
2♥ has some appeal but why not show support with support

[gwnn]

jillybean2, on Oct 31 2007, 07:37 AM, said:

2♥ has some appeal but why not show support with support

Because not all 3 card limit raises were created equal. Partner can judge much better whether or not to play 4♠ if he knows more about your hand And the opponents outgunning you is not a very likely possibility (we have majors). I suppose it might go 1♠-2♣-2♥-4♣ and we are taking the last guess, but every day we might be hit by the tram.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

a matter of partnership agreements,
in my partnership 3NT is some kind of
serious 3NT, accepting the inviatation
and making a move toward slam.

Playing with a stranger I guess it is choice
of games, personnally I would curse inwardly,
because if I play with a stranger, I just should
forget fine tunied action and bid straight down
the middle, and 3NT is certainly not a straight
down the middle bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Oct 31 2007, 12:37 AM, said:

Agree, 3♣ is a 3card limit raise as I play it.
2♥ has some appeal but why not show support with support

Right, show the support and simplify the auction,
anything else is just garbage, especsially if you play
with a stranger.
If you can show hearts and the support with one bid, say
via a fit jump, that would be great, but is not really needed,
if you cant, forget the hearts.

(*) I would use stronger words, but I try to clean up my
language.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Having seen that some posters seriously suggest to
hide the support at their first opportunity to speak, makes
me wish I had used stronger words, just ask yourself, how
you feel, if 4C / 5C comes back to you, and poor partner
went into a tank. Good luck, but dont ask for mercy or understanding,
if partners tank leads to some unpleasant decision making situations,
support comes first.
Given that we only hold a single, and that they are green makes
a raise to 4C fairly likely, and after that we are dead.

[skjaeran]

I'd never have made any direct ♠ raise here. 2♥ natural and forcing and raise ♠s next - help partner evaluate by telling him/her what you've got.

[whereagles]

skaeran, on Oct 31 2007, 05:29 PM, said:

I'd never have made any direct ♠ raise here. 2♥ natural and forcing and raise ♠s next - help partner evaluate by telling him/her what you've got.

That would definitely keep you out of a bad game on this occation, but what if cards lie differently and 4th player blasts 4 or 5♣? Then you might regret not having shown support. I'm not saying that it's likely to happen, just that it's possible.

[skjaeran]

whereagles, on Oct 31 2007, 07:11 PM, said:

skaeran, on Oct 31 2007, 05:29 PM, said:

I'd never have made any direct ♠ raise here. 2♥ natural and forcing and raise ♠s next - help partner evaluate by telling him/her what you've got.

That would definitely keep you out of a bad game on this occation,

I doubt that, I'd most probably support ♠s at the 4-level.