[hrothgar]

ralph23, on Oct 19 2007, 11:22 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2007, 03:03 PM, said:

To date, all that the USBF has done is issue a meaningless apology directed at a couple of non-principles.

1.  The USBF Board that issued the apology was not complict in the whole signage incident.

Did I miss something? They actually ISSUED a statement? I thought all that had happened so far was that the BoD of USBF voted on Monday 15 October to issue a "letter of regret" == and that Jan Martel was assigned to draft the same for the Board's review and later issuance.

BTW, for those not so familiar with the language of diplomacy, a "letter of regret" or "statement of regret" is not an apology. "The United States deeply regrets the disruption that the earthquake has caused for the people of Chile....." -- the US can't "apologize" for the earthquake. It can express regret that it happened.

Thanks for drawing the distinction between an apology and a letter of regret. You did a nice job calling attention to some subtle nuances that I glossed over completely.

Furthermore, it was careless of me to state that a letter of regret had been issued.

However, the core of my argument remains... Its all smoke and mirrors

[skjaeran]

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:59 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 03:52 PM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:44 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 03:29 PM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

Is there another sport where mediocre amateurs with no hope of ever becoming more than that are expected to fund the national teams?

I don't know how familiar you are with conditions in Europe, but that is exactly how it works. Everyone pays for the elite teams through their membership fees to the respective federations. It doesn't matter if it's football (soccer), handball, basketball, volleyball, ice hockey, field hockey, and of course bridge.

At least in Scandinavia we don't hear significant objections although everyone knows that only a tiny percentage makes it to the national teams.

Denmark had two teams in Shanghai (women and seniors) and they were funded by the 26,000 members of the Danish Bridge Federation.

Roland

And the players on these 'elite' teams are professionals? (I wasn't really referring to Europe (Scandinavia's governments are usually socialist, no?) but that's fine as long as we're comparing apples to apples.)

Some are, some are not, but we don't distinguish. The members contribute to the *team*.

As far as governments in Scandinavia are concerned, I think it's fair to say that your knowledge is not world class. Norway has a social democrat prime minister (Jens Stoltenberg), Sweden a conservative (Fredrik Reinfeldt) and Denmark a liberal (Anders Fogh Rasmussen).

Roland

Helene, could you please explain to Roland the difference between 'usually' and 'currently'? Thanks.

Jon, I don't know if you know the difference between socialist and social democratic. Norway haven't had a socialist government since WWII. From WWII to the mid seventies we had a social democratic government most of the period, with two short term non-socialist governments. Since then we've had several changes back and forth.

The situation in Denmark and Sweden has been similar, though not equal.

[mike777]

I'll bite in Scandanavia what is the difference in your life and country between a social democrat, liberal or conservative government? Are they really in power long enough to change much at all?

At least with a Democratic Congress in the USA we got out of Iraq, stopped torture and illegal wiretapping, impeached the president, have national health care for all, and all talk of going to war with Iran has stopped.

Just wait until we have a Democratic President we will really see even more huge changes.

[Walddk]

mike777, on Oct 19 2007, 11:42 PM, said:

I'll bite in Scandanavia what is the difference in your life and country between a social democrat, liberal or conservative government? Are they really in power long enough to change much at all?

It depends on who you ask. In my view there is not a significant difference because no party is big enough to govern on its own. Either it has coalition partners within the government or outside with support from other parties in the parliament.

The conclusion is that the party with the prime minister (which has not always been the largest in the parliament) needs to compromise with one or more of the other parties to ensure a majority.

Roland

[jtfanclub]

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 01:14 PM, said:

I seem to be the only person here who found that offensive and completely inappropriate for this type of forum.

Hi,

Welcome to the Water Cooler.

When you guys are done spamming here with bridge-related stuff, we'll go back to discussing whether droping a nuclear bomb on Tehran is appropriate, and whether the chimp's goons inappropriately bludgeoned people in Australia.

Whether Iranians would welcome signs saying "Kill all jews" may be the only part of this thread that's actually appropriate for this forum.

[jonottawa]

skaeran, on Oct 19 2007, 09:35 PM, said:

Jon, I don't know if you know the difference between socialist and social democratic. Norway haven't had a socialist government since WWII. From WWII to the mid seventies we had a social democratic government most of the period, with two short term non-socialist governments. Since then we've had several changes back and forth.

The situation in Denmark and Sweden has been similar, though not equal.

Aight, quibble noted. But surely we can agree that among Western nations, Scandinavian countries have traditionally been among the most socialist (in the sense of "unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done") and that attitudes in the United States tend to be considerably different? The point being that whether or not the ACBL/USBF should raise money from little old ladies to subsidize a team of professionals and a well-to-do client really has nothing to do with Scandinavian attitudes towards subsidizing groups of people 99% of whom are amateurs and the other 1% of whom are taxed up the ying-yang and may as well be amateurs.

To put it in sharper contrast: Do you want $1 of your green fees or your PGA membership fees to go towards Tiger Woods playing in the Ryder Cup? Do you want $1 of little Timmy's Little League dues to go towards A-Rod playing in the Olympics?

[luke warm]

jillybean2, on Oct 19 2007, 11:14 AM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 08:59 AM, said:

Helene, could you please explain to Roland the difference between 'usually' and 'currently'?  Thanks.

I prefer Richards approach rather than these innuendoes and sarcasm, everyone knows exactly where they stand.

of the two, i tend to also prefer knowing... the trouble is, richard uses ad hominem attacks quite often... it's surprising really that someone of his intelligence resorts to that tactic with that frequency, but it's possible he finds it hard to make a point otherwise

[Elianna]

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 10:14 AM, said:

I wasn't referring to the ladies, Josh. I was referring to the folks in the other thread who decided to take a completely off-topic, gratuitous and baseless swipe at the Iranian people.

One person presented a hypothetical situation:

"So Robbie Fissure, America's greatest bridge player, wins (with his team) the BB held in Chicago, and holds up a sign stating:

"Jews are scum. Shame they were not exterminated long ago like rodents. Hitler was right.""

Another person said:

"... But I bet he'd be welcome in Iran."

To which the first person responded:

"May be right about Iran !!"

I seem to be the only person here who found that offensive and completely inappropriate for this type of forum. I wouldn't want something similar said about either of my native lands and while I don't know anyone who lives in Iran or who is from Iran, I'm quite certain they would feel the same way.

If this were a political forum, wingnutty flatulence such as that would be completely acceptable, of course, but it's not.

I know people from Iran. I've sympathised with my students while they wonder if their relatives will be ok, or if they'll be accused of made-up crimes, like others have in their communities.

I know many who are so grateful that they were able to get out, and have had parents so desparate that they send the kids out in the care of relatives or older siblings if there's no one else.

[jonottawa]

Elianna, on Oct 19 2007, 10:42 PM, said:

I know people from Iran. I've sympathised with my students while they wonder if their relatives will be ok, or if they'll be accused of made-up crimes, like others have in their communities.

I know many who are so grateful that they were able to get out, and have had parents so desparate that they send the kids out in the care of relatives or older siblings if there's no one else.

Accused of made-up crimes? Like what? Marijuana possession? Good thing they don't do that here. Here they don't accuse you of anything, they just lock you up and throw away the key. Much tidier that way.

And do you think that letting Cheney/Bush invade Iran will make your students' families' lives easier?

[fred]

Elianna, on Oct 19 2007, 10:42 PM, said:

I know people from Iran. I've sympathised with my students while they wonder if their relatives will be ok, or if they'll be accused of made-up crimes, like others have in their communities.

I know many who are so grateful that they were able to get out, and have had parents so desparate that they send the kids out in the care of relatives or older siblings if there's no one else.

There are people from Iran who play on BBO on a regular basis. They may even be reading this - gasp! They tend to keep a low profile on our site, partly (I think) out of concern that playing bridge is of questionable legality in their country.

A few years ago I made friends with one of our Iranian members and since then we have enjoyed exchanging e-mail. Something this person said to me near the beginning of our relationship stuck in my mind (sorry I can't remember the exact words - they were more eloquent than this):

Many people in America think that Iran should become more like their country. Meanwhile what is happening is that America is becoming more like my country.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:51 PM, said:

Elianna, on Oct 19 2007, 10:42 PM, said:

I know people from Iran.  I've sympathised with my students while they wonder if their relatives will be ok, or if they'll be accused of made-up crimes, like others have in their communities.

I know many who are so grateful that they were able to get out, and have had parents so desparate that they send the kids out in the care of relatives or older siblings if there's no one else.

Accused of made-up crimes? Like what? Marijuana possession? Good thing they don't do that here. Here they don't accuse you of anything, they just lock you up and throw away the key. Much tidier that way.

And do you think that letting Cheney/Bush invade Iran will make your students' families' lives easier?

Thank goodness at least one person sees the positive side of the USA accusing people of nothing, putting them in jail and throwing away the key......

Debate/discussions get boring if everyone thought this was somehow a bad thingy and could not argue or see the other side of the debate.

[jonottawa]

fred, on Oct 19 2007, 10:53 PM, said:

Many people in America think that Iran should become more like their country. Meanwhile what is happening is that America is becoming more like my country.

Truer words ...

I hate all the 'High-Five Fred' type posts around here but ...

High-Five, Fred!

[fred]

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 11:03 PM, said:

I hate all the 'High-Five Fred' type posts around here but ...

High-Five, Fred!

I don't like those posts much either, especially when I don't think I deserve them (like in this case).

But I will pass on your high-five to my Iranian friend

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jonottawa]

And now for something completely different ...

Fred, when I played against you and Brad, you guys had a very distinctive way of playing your cards, almost throwing them at the table. I'm curious what the motivation for that is, or if I was just imagining it. Is it a common thing among world class experts that I'm just not aware of?

[fred]

jonottawa, on Oct 20 2007, 12:37 AM, said:

And now for something completely different ...

Fred, when I played against you and Brad, you guys had a very distinctive way of playing your cards, almost throwing them at the table.  I'm curious what the motivation for that is, or if I was just imagining it.  Is it a common thing among world class experts that I'm just not aware of?

I don't know Jon - I am not aware of it either. Zia is the only famous player I can think of that has (sometimes at least) a distinctive mannerism when he plays his cards.

I will try to pay closer attention to myself and let you know. I purposely do not pay attention to Brad's mannerisms at the table (sometimes a challenge) so I am afraid you will need to ask someone else about him

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jonottawa]

fred, on Oct 20 2007, 12:48 AM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 20 2007, 12:37 AM, said:

And now for something completely different ...

Fred, when I played against you and Brad, you guys had a very distinctive way of playing your cards, almost throwing them at the table.  I'm curious what the motivation for that is, or if I was just imagining it.  Is it a common thing among world class experts that I'm just not aware of?

I don't know Jon - I am not aware of it either. Zia is the only famous player I can think of that has (sometimes at least) a distinctive mannerism when he plays his cards.

I will try to pay closer attention to myself and let you know. I purposely do not pay attention to Brad's mannerisms at the table (sometimes a challenge) so I am afraid you will need to ask someone else about him

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Sorry, it's Friday night and I've had a few. You guys are incredibly ethical players (that goes without saying) and the only person to commit a faux pas during that match was me (I once pulled a card prematurely and Brad rightly called me on it.)

But surely you must be aware that there is an intensity to the way you play your cards (on every trick.) If you'd rather not say why, that's cool, but at least let me know that I'm not imagining things ...

[blackshoe]

fred, on Oct 19 2007, 05:53 PM, said:

A few years ago I made friends with one of our Iranian members and since then we have enjoyed exchanging e-mail. Something this person said to me near the beginning of our relationship stuck in my mind (sorry I can't remember the exact words - they were more eloquent than this):

Many people in America think that Iran should become more like their country. Meanwhile what is happening is that America is becoming more like my country.

Indeed.

Many years ago, in a little town called Philadelphia, a woman asked "What kind of government have you given us, Mr. Franklin?" Benjamin Franklin replied "A Republic, madam. If you can keep it."

We kept it for most of 200 years, but I fear our time is rapidly running out.

[fred]

Honestly I don't have a clue and I don't recall anyone ever mentioning this before. Really I would tell you if I knew.

Maybe when the match became out of reach we were playing quickly in an effort to get it over with?

Anyways I hope it wasn't obnoxious.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

fred, on Oct 19 2007, 07:48 PM, said:

I don't know Jon - I am not aware of it either. Zia is the only famous player I can think of that has (sometimes at least) a distinctive mannerism when he plays his cards.

I can think of a few others but having played against Fred a few times I don't recall anything at all unusual or abnormal about how he or Brad played the cards.

One that comes to mind is Pratap, he plays them all in a very distinctive slow and deliberate fashion (obviously an effort on his part to play every card in exactly the same way.) The most unusual I think I ever saw was Doug Doub. Hanging out by an event in which I wasn't playing I noticed he holds his entire hand completely upside down, and pulls his cards up through the top, meaning I have no idea at all how he knows which card is coming up! I tried holding mine the normal way and pulling them out through the bottom and it was not easy, so his is truly unusual.

[jonottawa]

jdonn, on Oct 20 2007, 01:22 AM, said:

fred, on Oct 19 2007, 07:48 PM, said:

I don't know Jon - I am not aware of it either. Zia is the only famous player I can think of that has (sometimes at least) a distinctive mannerism when he plays his cards.

I can think of a few others but having played against Fred a few times I don't recall anything at all unusual or abnormal about how he or Brad played the cards.

One that comes to mind is Pratap, he plays them all in a very distinctive slow and deliberate fashion (obviously an effort on his part to play every card in exactly the same way.) The most unusual I think I ever saw was Doug Doub. Hanging out by an event in which I wasn't playing I noticed he holds his entire hand completely upside down, and pulls his cards up through the top, meaning I have no idea at all how he knows which card is coming up! I tried holding mine the normal way and pulling them out through the bottom and it was not easy, so his is truly unusual.

Josh, I don't know how to describe it other than 'throwing the cards at the table.'

I considered it very distinctive behavior. Very UNobjectionable (certainly not obnoxious.) (It wasn't snapping cards, it was just 'I mean to play this card and I am playing this card.') I guess I was imagining things...