[Codo]

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God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever.

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3rd Comment - What's the rush to 3N? You have KJ of partner's suit and it's not as if you do not have room to get there.

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It's also an obvious 3H bid for me. I wonder what 3H shows for those who bid 3N here and the previous time we had a similar auction (a week ago or so).

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3H for me.

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Amazing to see people bid 3NT with this, this is probably the clearest 3H bid one can think of.

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3NT now on my hand is absolutely nuts.

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Absolutely normal 3♥, I don't even consider this a bidding problem.

All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here.

Thanks for all this statements. Or should I say for all your opinions? I do believe that all of you have reasons to search the 5-2 fit but may a t least one of you share them with us blind 3 NT bidders?

And at most I am interessted in getting to know how you will reach 3 NT when it is right after your 3 HEart bid. I guess you all give up on this and believe that 4 Heart is always superior?

[awm]

I actually like 3♦ here rather than 3♥, especially if 3♥ is often a real fit. I prefer to play 3♦ as a punt (4th suit) even in GF auctions. My expectation is that partner will bid one of

3♥: Showing six hearts, or maybe five really good ones with concentrated values in the round suits. I will raise this to 4♥.

3♠: Showing a spade fit, maybe Hx of spade. This is the hand that actually makes 3NT seem most reasonable, since partner's "weakness" is opposite our ♦QTxx and partner has some help for the spade suit. I will try 3NT.

3NT: Showing diamond control, most likely 1-5-3-4. However, this often means 3NT is bad because spades are wide open. I will correct to 4♥, which essentially has to show honor-doubleton heart with very weak spades.

4♣: Showing a 5-5 hand, probably concentrated values. I'll try 4♥.

[jdonn]

bid_em_up, on Aug 28 2007, 02:44 PM, said:

jdonn, on Aug 28 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here.

Thats because those in the "know" keep everybody else in the dark as to the true meaning of 3N. It's a new convention called "The 3N Secret".

I call it 'why would I want my opponents to know'

[helene_t]

I can understand that 3NT is not everybody's choice but the strong sentiments against 3NT surprise me. As Adam says, 3♥ will make p bid 3N when it's not good or when it would be good in my hand. Besides, if 3♥ does not set trump, how can we explore slam?

I have a lot of sympathy for 3♦ which gives us more room. If p now bid 3♠, we can bid 3NT with more confidence. And 3♥ we can raise, also giving a good picture of our hand (except that p will upvaluate a spade honour and downvaluate a diamond honor, but that is bound to happen anyway). But if p bids 3N over 3♦ and we correct to 4♥, doesn't it suggest a better hand? I'm almost sure my IRL partner would take it that way, although that could be a non-standard treatment. Finaly, doesn't 3♦ suggest clubs support?

[FrancesHinden]

3D followed by 4H sounds like a slam try with doubleton heart support.
I don't see why 3D suggests club support.

[cherdano]

3N shows a hand with a lot of stuff in S/D and very little in H+C, warning partner against playing in one of his suits.
The problem is that
1. 3C can still be many different hand types, and
2. opener is still a lot closer to describing his hand than responder.

Hence it is routine to make a cheap bid (e.g. a false preference) to let opener finish describing his hand.

[FrancesHinden]

Codo, on Aug 29 2007, 08:02 AM, said:

Thanks for all this statements. Or should I say for all your opinions? I do believe that all of you have reasons to search the 5-2 fit but may a t least one of you share them with us blind 3 NT bidders?

And at most I am interessted in getting to know how you will reach 3 NT when it is right after your 3 HEart bid. I guess you all give up on this and believe that 4 Heart is always superior?

There is no way you can select between 4H and 3NT correctly 100% of the time having got to this point in the auction. So you have to be aware that if you bid 3NT you will play there sometimes when 4H is better, and if you bid 3H you will play in a suit game sometimes when 3NT is better.

We can start quoting hands at each other where either 3NT is the best game, or 4H (or 4S) is the best game, but that won't prove a great deal other than we are good at constructing hands. The real point is that 3H is much less committal as to strain than 3NT. Having bid 3H you still have a chance of playing in 4H, 4S or 3NT. True, you will sometimes play 4H when 3NT is better, but on some of the hands where 3NT is miles better - if partner has some 2524 hand with Hx in both pointy suits say - he will bid 3NT and you can pass happily. Against that, if you bid 3NT you will play there unless partner has a very unusual hand, because 3NT is an auction-ending bid: by passing over all of 3D (4th suit), 3H (boring preference) and 3S (long spades) you are saying you aren't inviting partner bid over 3NT. Even looking at AKx Axxxx x AKxx (when 4S is by far the best spot) he's might pass 3NT expecting you to have only 4 spades and good diamonds (that's a good bidding problem, except that many people would have bid only 2C over 1S with that hand).

I personally quite like 3D followed by 3NT over 3 of a major on this shape, as that should imply doubt about 3NT as a contract. As long as you are confident (as I would be in my regular partnerships) that 3D is fourth suit forcing; that 3D doesn't imply any additional values; that the sequence shows doubt about the best game, not necessarily a slam try.

[keylime]

I wholeheartedly agree with Han. 3♥ is standout. 3NT is never in my vocabulary here.

1. Your spade suit looks like Swiss cheese. Probably stinks like a Brie or a Cambrefort.
2. You hold 2 nice honors in hearts for pard.
3. The J of clubs doubleton is now offensive.
4. Diamonds have no future in 3NT after they cash the first 4-5 spades and then attack diamonds because you're having to pitch 3-4 times from the board.
5. 3NT is for hands that need to play somewhat passively because you're either running a suit somewhere or you have values but no fit. You have some values with 2 degrees of fit. It's suit oriented.

3D does make some sense but if opener is on a 1-5-2-5 they are not well placed. I'd tell pard that hearts is "safe".

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Aug 29 2007, 09:45 AM, said:

3D followed by 4H sounds like a slam try with doubleton heart support.

When I play my version of Precision, this is specifically defined as a slam try with at least 3 card support (3♥ is pick-a-game, 4♥ is signoff).

I'm curious as to how this is normally handled at the upper levels: having a hand which has some slam interest after 1♥-1♠-3♣ has to be pretty common. How do you invite to slam without going past game?

[joshs]

My usual agreement on Strong Jump Shift auctions:
1. 2N shows a stopper in all unbids (e.g. 1m-1H-2S, and so on)
2. 3N says you really really think 3N is the right spot. This requires a minimum of 2.5 stoppers in the suits other than what opener has shown, and at least a partial stopper in each of the other suits. Really, you want 1.5 stoppers in each suit, so you often should chose something else without that.
3. Rebidding Opener's suit is a waiting bid showing willingness in playing at least one of opener's suits. This is occasionally made on a singleton when there is not a lot of space to do anything else (For instance after 1S-1N-3H you should bid 3S on x Axx Axxxx xxxx since you prefer to play in a suit if opener is 5-5 or 6-4)
4. Bids of the 4'th suit is natural, showing values there but doubt about 3N (maybe is too good for 3N and want to save space for opener's rebid)
5. Bids of a 3'rd suit is natural (Exception: 1H-1N-3m-3S is obvious not a suit, so one might play it as a stopper, or for some other purpose....)
6. Jumps to 4 of opener's suit shows a limit raise
7. Raises of the jump shift suit promise genuine support (4+ cards). If the jump shift suit is a minor (which might be a 3 card suit) then the raise is only 4 cards if it was interested in slam but would pass a 4M rebid

Following the preference to opener's first suit, opener will:
a. pattern out if below 3N
b. bid 3N without any extra shape in his 2 suits
c. show a 5'th card in his second suit, or a 6'th in his first suit.


In the hand in question, 3N is sick. How is opener suppossed to know when to pass it, when if he doesn't have any help in spades and diamonds, the opps can probably take the first 6 tricks.

3H is almost textbook here since with the strong doubleton, 4H is almost certainly right if opener is 5-5 or 6-4. Quite frankly if opener bid 3N next over 3H I am still not sure I would sit (imagine x AQxxx AKx KQJx, then the opps have the first 5 tricks on a black suit lead, and spades are the normal lead here, since opener, with the strength is short in spades).

There is a case for playing the 4'th suit as the waiting bid instead if its below opener's first suit....

[y66]

fyi, the Deal of the Week mentioned by Hannie was for March 4th, 2002.

The lin file is: http://www.bridgebas...otw/dotw286.lin

Takes a while to get to the jump shift hand (4th one I think). Was worth it for me. Have not read these deals before. And I don’t know much about jump shifts (am reading this thread with interest).

Looks like Fred and his partner, Joey Silver, were playing 3N along lines described by Josh.

[han]

Playing that 3H shows 3-card support seems wrong. You use one of the cheapest calls for hands that come up least frequently. In this auction you could agree to use 3D = waiting, 3H = slam try and that could be playable, but how about after 1H-1S-3D?

[han]

Thanks for posting the link to the deal of the week, still great reading.

[pclayton]

joshs, on Aug 29 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

My usual agreement on Strong Jump Shift auctions:
1. 2N shows a stopper in all unbids (e.g. 1m-1H-2S, and so on)
2. 3N says you really really think 3N is the right spot. This requires a minimum of 2.5 stoppers in the suits other than what opener has shown, and at least a partial stopper in each of the other suits. Really, you want 1.5 stoppers in each suit, so you often should chose something else without that.
3. Rebidding Opener's suit is a waiting bid showing willingness in playing at least one of opener's suits. This is occasionally made on a singleton when there is not a lot of space to do anything else (For instance after 1S-1N-3H you should bid 3S on x Axx Axxxx xxxx since you prefer to play in a suit if opener is 5-5 or 6-4)
4. Bids of the 4'th suit is natural, showing values there but doubt about 3N (maybe is too good for 3N and want to save space for opener's rebid)
5. Bids of a 3'rd suit is natural (Exception: 1H-1N-3m-3S is obvious not a suit, so one might play it as a stopper, or for some other purpose....)
6. Jumps to 4 of opener's suit shows a limit raise
7. Raises of the jump shift suit promise genuine support (4+ cards). If the jump shift suit is a minor (which might be a 3 card suit) then the raise is only 4 cards if it was interested in slam but would pass a 4M rebid

Following the preference to opener's first suit, opener will:
a. pattern out if below 3N
b. bid 3N without any extra shape in his 2 suits
c. show a 5'th card in his second suit, or a 6'th in his first suit.


In the hand in question, 3N is sick. How is opener suppossed to know when to pass it, when if he doesn't have any help in spades and diamonds, the opps can probably take the first 6 tricks.

3H is almost textbook here since with the strong doubleton, 4H is almost certainly right if opener is 5-5 or 6-4. Quite frankly if opener bid 3N next over 3H I am still not sure I would sit (imagine x AQxxx AKx KQJx, then the opps have the first 5 tricks on a black suit lead, and spades are the normal lead here, since opener, with the strength is short in spades).

There is a case for playing the 4'th suit as the waiting bid instead if its below opener's first suit....

This is excellent advice in an auction that doesn't get discussed much.

3N IS sick. 3♥ is possible and I wouldn't be upset if my pard bid 3♦ on these cards.

[helene_t]

Hannie, on Aug 30 2007, 01:39 AM, said:

Playing that 3H shows 3-card support seems wrong. You use one of the cheapest calls for hands that come up least frequently. In this auction you could agree to use 3D = waiting, 3H = slam try and that could be playable, but how about after 1H-1S-3D?

That's enterely different. If 4th suit is not available, you need another waiting bid.

That said, you convinced me that 3NT is wrong. Learned something from from BBO-forum once again

[FrancesHinden]

joshs, on Aug 29 2007, 09:26 PM, said:

2. 3N says you really really think 3N is the right spot. This requires a minimum of 2.5 stoppers in the suits other than what opener has shown, and at least a partial stopper in each of the other suits. Really, you want 1.5 stoppers in each suit, so you often should chose something else without that.

This is a bit extreme.
Take the auction here, 1H - 1S - 3C - ?
If you are going to bid 3NT then you can't have a slam try, because it's non-forcing.
If you don't have a slam try opposite a strong jump shift, how can you possibly have "2.5 stoppers" in spades and diamonds, and "at least a partial stopper in each of the other suits"???

3NT is the standout bid on something like

Q109x
x
KJxxx
xxx

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Aug 30 2007, 05:18 AM, said:

joshs, on Aug 29 2007, 09:26 PM, said:

2. 3N says you really really think 3N is the right spot. This requires a minimum of 2.5 stoppers in the suits other than what opener has shown, and at least a partial stopper in each of the other suits. Really, you want 1.5 stoppers in each suit, so you often should chose something else without that.

This is a bit extreme.
Take the auction here, 1H - 1S - 3C - ?
If you are going to bid 3NT then you can't have a slam try, because it's non-forcing.
If you don't have a slam try opposite a strong jump shift, how can you possibly have "2.5 stoppers" in spades and diamonds, and "at least a partial stopper in each of the other suits"???

3NT is the standout bid on something like

Q109x
x
KJxxx
xxx

I think you misunderstood him, it was 2.5 total, not each. This hand has about 4 total stoppers, so I'm sure you would get no argument for 3NT I agree it looks like he said you need a partial stop in hearts and clubs also but I don't think he meant that. Josh?

[joshs]

Yeah its 2.5 stoppers total between the 2 suits is the minimum (and doesn't promoise anything in opener's suits), and you prefer to have at least 1.5 in each of the 2. Frances's hand has something like 4 stoppers between the 2 suits. and 2 in each.

I meant to say at least 2.5 stoppers in the two suits, including at least a partial stopper in each. My "other" in my "each of the other" was meant to apply to the suits "other than opener's" but I did not write a very good grammatical sentence....

[mikeh]

Late to the thread, but I agree entirely with Frances' excellent posts (until where I think she misunderstood the description of 3N).

With all respect to the 3N bidders, I think that this is an excellent hand on which to measure the bidding level of a partner: in a std method, my expectation is that 95% of experts would choose either 3♥ or 3♦, with most going for 3♥, while I suspect that at least 50% of club players would bid 3N.