[gwnn]

Undisturbed bidding at MP 1♥-1♠-3♣-?

9xxxx KJ QTxx Jx

[Codo]

3 NT, enough HCps, no real fit, no slam in sight 4. suit stopped. What did I miss?

[helene_t]

Yes, 3N seems easy. We could miss a heart slam but if 3NT is the right spot (which is likely), somebody has to bid it.

[P_Marlowe]

3NT, the alternative being 3D.

But partner may give me a stronger
hand if I bid 3NT via 3D.
And one can debate, if I really want to
find a 5-3 fit in spades.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

3NT is my third choice.
I would bid either 3D (4th suit) or 3H.
Playing 5-card majors, you would have raised 1H to 2H with a weak hand with 3 trumps, so bidding hearts now is either a weak hand with two hearts, or a slam try. Partner will assume the former, and you have a HUGE heart holding.

Give partner a minimum 3C bid such as

x
AQ10xx
Kxx
AKQx

and 3NT might have 5 top losers. A spade lead would not be unexpected.

[Codo]

And give him
Aj, AQxxx,xx,AKxx another minimum and you want be in 3 NT after an even more expected diamond lead.
The problem is: You must decide it more or less now. Pd may well bid 3 NT himself with your example hand, but surely never with mine. He is not able to make a better descission then I can. So 3 Heart had been my 3. choice....

[jtfanclub]

Jlall, on Aug 28 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever.

Do you play this auction as GF, or does the 3♥ bid say "I'm sorry I didn't pass 1♥"?

[Echognome]

jtfanclub, on Aug 28 2007, 07:32 AM, said:

Jlall, on Aug 28 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever.

Do you play this auction as GF, or does the 3♥ bid say "I'm sorry I didn't pass 1♥"?

1st Comment - If you were thinking about passing over 1♥, then the only reason you bid was to improve the contract. Thus, why would 3♥ ever want to be used to convey that message. It makes no sense at all.

2nd Comment - Most people do not treat their jump shifts lightly. These are full fledged GFs the way most people play them.

3rd Comment - What's the rush to 3N? You have KJ of partner's suit and it's not as if you do not have room to get there.

[jtfanclub]

Echognome, on Aug 28 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

1st Comment - If you were thinking about passing over 1♥, then the only reason you bid was to improve the contract. Thus, why would 3♥ ever want to be used to convey that message. It makes no sense at all.

2nd Comment - Most people do not treat their jump shifts lightly. These are full fledged GFs the way most people play them.

3rd Comment - What's the rush to 3N? You have KJ of partner's suit and it's not as if you do not have room to get there.

I was thinking of Codo's comment...

Quote

3 NT, enough HCps, no real fit, no slam in sight 4. suit stopped. What did I miss?

It's not that I play 3♥ here as weak, it's that the comment made me wonder what 'enough HCP' here means. Isn't 3NT and 3♥ showing the same strength? It's not like you can pass 3♣.

[FrancesHinden]

Any non-jump call over 3C (3D, 3H, 3S, 3NT) shows the same minimum strength. They just have different messages about your hand.

3C is absolutely game forcing in any normal method.

[FrancesHinden]

Codo, on Aug 28 2007, 02:57 PM, said:

And give him
Aj, AQxxx,xx,AKxx another minimum and you want be in 3 NT after an even more expected diamond lead.

Do I?
3NT rates to go down a lot of the time against sensible defence, even on a diamond lead.
(Admittedly so does 4H, but that just shows it's a poor example hand)

[cherdano]

It's also an obvious 3H bid for me. I wonder what 3H shows for those who bid 3N here and the previous time we had a similar auction (a week ago or so).

[pbleighton]

3H for me.

Peter

[han]

Amazing to see people bid 3NT with this, this is probably the clearest 3H bid one can think of.

This makes me think of something Fred wrote about jumpshift auctions a couple of years ago, I think in a deal of the week. That hand was 5-5 in the unbid suits and I think the auction was somewhat similar. He said that he almost always bids 3H but with that hand he didn't. There were so many deals of the week that I'm not going to look it up.

[awm]

To some degree I suspect this is a matter of agreement. In particular:

(1) Which hands with 3♥ would initially reply 1NT? How do you show these hands? It seems difficult to play that 3♥ could be any/all of a terrible hand with three hearts, an intermediate hand with two hearts, or a limit raise with three hearts...

(2) What is 3♦? Is it a suit (we are game forced)? Asking for a diamond control? Showing five spades? Asking partner to pattern out?

(3) Does 3♥ basically agree hearts? Are we cuebidding over this?

One point that's sort of amusing is that the hands where partner bids 3NT over 3♥ will probably be similar to 1-5-3-4 patterns with decent diamonds, which are exactly the hands where we don't want to be in 3NT since the spades are so weak, and playing 3NT from opener's side is likely to be especially poor (the bad spades will be on the table). Alternatively, it seems like there could be hands where 3NT is excellent and we play a lousy 4♥ because partner is afraid of the diamonds (Kx AQxxx Jx AKQx maybe).

[skjaeran]

Most of the example hands for opener are impossible to me.
1♥ 1♠ 3♣ promises 55+ to me and is GF.
3NT now on my hand is absolutely nuts.
I'd most probably rebid 4♥, which is weaker than 3♥ in my methods.

[jdonn]

Absolutely normal 3♥, I don't even consider this a bidding problem.

All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here.

[bid_em_up]

jdonn, on Aug 28 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here.

Thats because those in the "know" keep everybody else in the dark as to the true meaning of 3N. It's a new convention called "The 3N Secret".

[whereagles]

Jlall, on Aug 28 2007, 03:21 PM, said:

God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever.

Even if you play that as a real fit? (As most do here in Europe...)