[Miron]

Recently we've got these hands:

Scoring: IMP

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p - p - 1♠ - 2♣
p - 2♥ - 2♠ - all

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the easiest way is, that South
should show the support over 2C,
i.e. he should bid 2S.

Partner knows, that 2S just shows
support and some best wishes, and
South has an Ace and ruffing values.

South may raise 2S to 3S, but this is
certainly not as clear as the direct raise.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

The short answer is that South was too passive. The long answer was given by Justin.

[helene_t]

Surprised that Justin says that not raising 2♠ is "very bad". P made a nonvul 2♠ bid. Even at IMPs it could be mainly competitive (not weak, though, it opps rate to have game you just pass).

Not sure how good this 4♠ is with a trump lead. Make one of South's small diamonds a club and it's a bad game.

[FrancesHinden]

Game is pretty horrible needing trumps 2-2 most of the time. It's also going to need a non-club lead if clubs are 6-2, as you might expect from the overcall, (or J10 of spades in opening leader's hand).

Even if clubs are 5-3, you need a club ruff for your 10th trick, so after the singleotn heart lead you will still need trumps 2-2 or they are going to ruff out your HK.

[SoTired]

1) Responder could bid 2S over 2C. Not all will do that
2) Opener has to bid more than 2S over 2H. 4S would not be wrong, but opener could bid 3S and responder will bid 4S.

[kenrexford]

This was a third-seat 1♠ opening, right?

I'm not all that keen, myself, on the idea of an immediate raise to 2♠ with no honor and relatively flat. Two reasons -- it hangs partner when he opens as light as I would expect, and it leaves partner unprepared for 3♣ when the needs to know if you have two cards or three, and only have one. Sure, the doubleton club might produce a trick, but a 2-2 splint for us is very likely.

If Opener next bids 2♠, he is stronger than a 2♠ opening. But, this hand features only five losers, even fully discounting the club Queen. In support of himself, Opener is rather strong. His negative feature is an expectation that Responder's meager source or remaining possible values may well be poorly-placed slow diamond values. It seems to me that Opener probably should consider immediately bidding 3♠, but I see his problem.

Responder, having passed initially, now senses that the club doubleton actually is a value. Two covers (Ace plus well-placed doubleton) seems to support a raise. Opener is very unlikely to fail at 3♠ when he passes with a probable six-loser hand. With a seven-loser hand, an initial 2♠ would have been appealing, but perhaps opener has too many Jacks and Aces. Down one at IMP's is tolerated in this type of situation. On a good day, however, Opener will be able to accept this GT, like today, and game will make.

All that said, however, 4♠ is far from clearly making. This could go spade lead, club to the Queen and King, spade back, club to the Jack, spade back, in which case the max on the hand is 9 tricks. It is also very plausible that 3NT is the sole making game, but I doubt I'd find that.

[SoTired]

We hang partner not when opener is weak, but when opener is strong. If we can have this hand up to slightly less than an LR, opener may make a poor pass/invite/4S decision that would be more accurate if our minimum had the traditional limits. OTOH, when opener is non-invite or less, we make things more difficult for the opps.

Justin says raising with this produces better results in the long run. Any other expert collaboration?

[Fluffy]

I would had probably duplicated your bidding.

[Miron]

Thanks all for replies,

My idea for not raising to 2♠ (yes, I was the passive south):
The probability for partner weak opening is very low, he has standard openning (otherwise 2♣ would be huge underbid).
2♠ are not any nice bid from me, balanced, if unsupported by opennents the club doubleton lies before LHO club doubleton (overruffs danger) and I don't have any other value in hand, except ♦A. IMHO one ace, bad fit and bad distribution is leading to pass after 2♣.

The raise from 2♠ to 3♠ was even worser, I have 4 hearts, LHO 5 hearts partner and RHO 2 heart, overruf risk. The clubs were unsupported, there is risk in 5422 with overrufs, still bad fit and just one ace. Pass.

There is a lot of posts about p - p - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♠. Are you not afraid of bad game? I think that best rebid is 3♠ after 2♥, but I'm involved . This is also the reason of this thread.

But from the posts it seams that 2♠ should be said, next time I will.

[Quantumcat]

How many points/what exact type of hand do you expect partner to have when he rebids a suit and you've passed? (Besides just "good") I've never been exactly certain of this.

[Miron]

Well,
2♠ I take as roughly 15-17, 6 cards, about 7 optimistic tricks
3♠ 18+, 6 cards, about 8 optimistic tricks (that are not opened 4♦).

But I just guess here, any have better idea?

[skjaeran]

If partner overcalled 1♠, I'd raise with this.
When partner opens 1♠, even in 3rd seat, it's a clearer raise IMO.

[ArtK78]

I would always bid 2S on the South hand, and we would get to game.

The argument that this is a rather poor game on a trump lead is neither here nor there. The chances of getting a trump lead are low. Possibly a high club lead followed by a trump shift, but that will never succeed. The chances that the defense will lead a trump and be able to lead a second and third round of trump are very low. I will lead out the CQ on the second round of the suit to limit the chance of RHO getting in to lead a third round of trump.

The main reason that this is a mediocre game is that RHO may have 3 trump and only 2 clubs, so he will be able to overruff dummy. Now the defense has 4 tricks.

If clubs are 5-3, and the only lead that has a chance of beating 4S is a trump, I want to bid the game.

[Fluffy]

Miron, on Jul 19 2007, 01:13 PM, said:

Well,
2♠ I take as roughly 15-17, 6 cards, about 7 optimistic tricks
3♠ 18+, 6 cards, about 8 optimistic tricks (that are not opened 4♦).

But I just guess here, any have better idea?

you also have double then 3 spades

[Miron]

What would be that double, takeout? Openent bid two colors, partner can have only diamonds, but why not to bid them? Or some 6-4 shape?
I don't think that only different spade strength is right for double.
But penalty is also strange, but with 5-4 and nice hearts, maybe.

What is your opinion on double?

I opened new thread:
New thread