[bhall]

The doubler cannot know that opener has length in ♦. Therefore, he cannot expect opener to reason that the double "can't be" penalty. If he gets away with this abuse of partnership trust here, he is likely to repeat it in many forms later on. So, hang the result on this board, PASS!

And no, that is not simply partner-punishment. The principle is too important to be ignored.

[TimG]

Gerben42, on Jul 6 2007, 04:30 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

---

You deal and open 1♣ (can be doubleton, 1NT would be 11-14). RHO overcalls 1♦, partner PASSES.

Was this in the southern hemisphere?

[P_Marlowe]

Codo, on Jul 7 2007, 06:13 AM, said:

I still don´t get the reasoning for the penalty X.

Mike construct a hand where overcaller has KJxx and his pd xxx.
That leaves AQxx for partner.
This is no trap pass of 1 Diamond, this is a NT bid.

So you need this double as penalty just in case one of your opponents psyched 1 Diamond and/or 3 Diamond. Seems unlikely. Too say it midly.
Okay you not always hold xx in their suit, but f.e you have just one.
In mikes example this gives pd still just a AQxxx, still no trap pass- and still silly bids from the opponents.

One option is, that 1D could be a 3 carder and
reponder holds 4 card and an additional Single,
3D may not be best, but if responder takes its
chances that partner holds a 4 carder, it can
happen, espesially playing MP.

Given our hand, we know, that partner does not
hold such a hand, because it is unusal to psych a
1D overcall and psych a 3D raise, I doubt any
of those psychs make a lot of sense (I dont psych,
but I feel to see the rational).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 8 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

Codo, on Jul 7 2007, 06:13 AM, said:

I still don´t get the reasoning for the penalty X.

Mike construct a hand where overcaller has KJxx and his pd xxx.
That leaves AQxx for partner.
This is no trap pass of 1 Diamond, this is a NT bid.

So you need this double as penalty just in case one of your opponents psyched 1 Diamond and/or 3 Diamond. Seems unlikely. Too say it midly.
Okay you not always hold xx in their suit, but f.e you have just one.
In mikes example this gives pd still just a AQxxx, still no trap pass- and still silly bids from the opponents.

One option is, that 1D could be a 3 carder and
reponder holds 4 card and an additional Single,
3D may not be best, but if responder takes its
chances that partner holds a 4 carder, it can
happen, espesially playing MP.

Given our hand, we know, that partner does not
hold such a hand, because it is unusal to psych a
1D overcall and psych a 3D raise, I doubt any
of those psychs make a lot of sense (I dont psych,
but I feel to see the rational).

With kind regards
Marlowe

I don't think 1♦ could systematically be a 3-card, that would be a BSC. But clearly someone made a mistake on this auction.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Jul 8 2007, 04:00 AM, said:

I don't think 1♦ could systematically be a 3-card, that would be a BSC. But clearly someone made a mistake on this auction.

??????

In normal SAYC, 4-4-3-2 hands are opened 1 diamond.
4-3-3-3 hands may be opened 1 diamond, without an alert.

So sure, why not?

[helene_t]

jtfanclub, on Jul 8 2007, 02:20 PM, said:

helene_t, on Jul 8 2007, 04:00 AM, said:

I don't think 1♦ could systematically be a 3-card, that would be a BSC. But clearly someone made a mistake on this auction.

??????

In normal SAYC, 4-4-3-2 hands are opened 1 diamond.
4-3-3-3 hands may be opened 1 diamond, without an alert.

So sure, why not?

!!!!!!!!

It was an overcall, not an opening.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Jul 8 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

It was an overcall, not an opening.

It's very early/late, and I am very stupid. Sorry about that.

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on Jul 8 2007, 07:35 AM, said:

helene_t, on Jul 8 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

It was an overcall, not an opening.

It's very early/late, and I am very stupid. Sorry about that.

, glad I am not the only one, who made this
mistake

[foo]

Gerben42, on Jul 6 2007, 04:30 AM, said:

South,None,MP,
K932,86,A4,AKT43

You deal and open 1♣ (can be doubleton, 1NT would be 11-14). RHO overcalls 1♦, partner PASSES. This is raised to 3♦, and partner doubles after 2 passes:

1♣ 1♦ Pass 3♦
Pass Pass Dbl

Now what?

I usually agree with Frances and/or mikeh, but this one smells wrong.

1C-(1D) consumes no bidding space. Even slighty crazy or less than expert opponents are going to tend to have their bid here.

The (3D) raise is usually preemptive in a Contested auction. Which leaves me with puzzles.

Where are the points? In my and LHO hand's I bet.
Where are the Majors? Either no one has them or pd has them and is too weak to bid them or make a Negative X.

If pd has 6+H and a weak hand, they could Neg X planning to rebid H's.
The auction denies that pd has D's.
pd would raise me if they have 4+C.
=> pd has a weak hand with 54, 44, or 55 in the majors.

I'm bidding 3S.

[han]

Jlall, on Jul 7 2007, 11:41 AM, said:

Trust partner? Come on guys lol. Sometimes partner makes a mistake. Sometimes we're lucky enough to realize that and we can save him. This is one of those times, I'd be really surprised if you guys actually passed at the table because I know you know deep down inside what ha happened.

Too often I've been stubborn and passed planning to get angry with partner later, which is a very bad attitude. So I agree with your general attitude towards these situation, but this is a very clear penalty double imo, and I've discussed this situation with my regular partners. If you were playing with a regular partner of yours, would you play him to have made this mistake?

[Gerben42]

Part of the reason I passed is that I had A AK and the feeling that anything we might play would be a complete disaster and 3♦ MIGHT go down. That it's takeout from his side is one thing, but to play a contract on the 3-level knowing he could not act over 1♦...

[Halo]

I have a lot of sympathy with the last two posts - so why I do I agree with Jlall (and my own earlier post).

If I had discussed this position with partner (as penalty) then that's that: I pass.

For me, MPs .. I'm catering for a semi pysch 1D opposite a semi-psych 3D and I have discussed this with my partner... 'not yet'...

[Codo]

Maybe I did not ask this correct before, but for which hand do you play partner to have a penalty double of 3 Diamond?

[helene_t]

Jlall, on Jul 9 2007, 11:14 AM, said:

You may think it's a very clear penalty X (it is), but it's more clear that partner cannot have a penalty double. I will have no recourse in the post mortem of course but do you REALLY think partner has a penalty X?

Maybe not, but I would feel terribly insulted if my p based his decisions on his assessment that I made a brain fart of this caliber.

Bidding 3♠ may win this particular board but I don't think it will pay in the long run. Certainly not in terms of my relationship with p.

If p is known not to know too much about bidding theory, it may be different. By the same token, if p catters for the possibility that I didn't notice a signal, it's ok, I know that I make many brain farts in the defensive play and it would be irational for p to ignore that fact.

But even then, I would not feel comfortable about bidding 3♠. And playing with a student, I would always leave in this double.

[jtfanclub]

Jlall, on Jul 9 2007, 04:14 AM, said:

Even in these constructions where they've overcalled a 4 card suit and preempted with a 3 card suit I have never seen a trap pass of 1D with a 4 card suit.

You may think it's a very clear penalty X (it is), but it's more clear that partner cannot have a penalty double. I will have no recourse in the post mortem of course but do you REALLY think partner has a penalty X?

I don't know if it has to be a penalty penalty X.

Maybe he has something like, I dunno...

QTx
QJx
QTx
Txxx

Partner didn't want to bid clubs the first time around, and end up with a possible 4-2 fit (even 4-3 doesn't look good). On the other hand, he didn't want to bid No Trump either: Maybe you play 1NT as 8+ on this auction.

So it goes around, 3 diamonds, back to him. Nice defense on this hand...two, two and a half tricks. Opener ought to have 3 defensive tricks, especially with these nice fillers. So he Xs. If opener was bidding on a long club suit, well, 4 clubs isn't the worst of places to end up.

And at 3 diamonds doubled you have what, one club, two diamonds, one heart, hopefuly two spades. Down 2. 3 spades and 4 clubs are also down, I think.

But, that's just my thought on what a penalty double here would look like. I don't think it's a trap pass, just a whole lot of defense which should be enough across a full opener.