[mike777]

What does a standard 2nt look like in balance seat over a weak 2 bid.

Partners tell me many/most 14 hcpointers is standard.
Mike Lawrence in his book on balancing, page 152?, says a super 15-19?

[mikeh]

For me, it is 15-18: I don't think I've ever done it on 19... but I won't say never.

It is critical to understand that saying '15-18' does not mean that I won't do it on 14.. if the 14 is upgradable. People who merely add their Aces, Kings, Queens and Jacks and say: 'this is my hand strength' are not bridge players. Some 14s are better than some 16s and so on...

[pclayton]

A good 15 to 18. (just noticed this was in the balance - edited).

[Stephen Tu]

14 is really pushing it in my view.

I think it is a mistake to shade balancing actions over preemptive bids (as opposed to 1 of a suit openers) for several reasons:
- unlike over a 1 bid, your RHO could be quite strong just misfit, and your side may get in trouble, or simply turn a plus position defending into a minus by declaring
- there is often little room or no room for partner to invite game, wide ranges make your bidding less accurate
- more likely that the opponents are already high enough that you can set them

You can certainly miss games this way, when both partners are balanced, moderate (12-14) strength, with length in the preemptor's suit. But that's balanced out IMO by the times you avoid turning a plus score into a minus by bidding. And sometimes vul opps go down enough to compensate for the loss of your game.

[whereagles]

I like 12-16. Depends a bit on the hand, of course, but the "balancing bids can be 2-3 hcp lower than direct bids" adage seems usable here as well. So from a 2NT 15-18 in direct, going to 13-16 is ok (eventually a good 12).

Not all will agree, but hey that's life.

[han]

15-18 for me. Notice that I bid 2NT on that "14-count" you just posted. The excellent spot cards made the difference.

[SoTired]

15-18, same as directly over a weak 2. I think I would more likely have a bad 19 then a good 14.

12-16? Crazy. Bidding 2N with 12-13 in this situation is really dangerous. Not only is 2N is very difficult to make on 21-22 HCP, but you might have less and be doubled. Plus the range is so wide that advancer with 11 or even 10 has not idea what to do and will raise to 3N. Now you are in a 23-24 3N with some sides suits probably splitting badly.

[whereagles]

12-16 doesn't mean any 12-13 hcp will do. For instance, over 2♥,

xx
Kxx
AQT9x
Kxx

is ok, whereas

Qxx
Qxx
KJxx
AJx

clearly is not.

[SoTired]

whereagles, on May 14 2007, 01:51 PM, said:

12-16 doesn't mean any 12-13 hcp will do. For instance, over 2♥,

xx
Kxx
AQT9x
Kxx

is ok, whereas

Qxx
Qxx
KJxx
AJx

clearly is not.

This is a common mistake: Bidding NT because you have a stopper. 2N requires 8 tricks. A stopper is only 1 trick. Give partner a random 8 HCP and how are you going to take 8 tricks with xx Kxx AQ10xx Kxx.

If LHO does not lead a heart, you don't even have the ♥K as a trick. Worse - RHO gets on lead and leads high from ♥Jx or ♥10x. 2N is going to be very sad.

[whereagles]

Bidding NT because I have a stopper..? Who do you take me for, you self-appointed expert?

[Apollo81]

IMO, (2x)-p-(p)-2NT is 15-18ish, which is slightly (maybe 1 point) weaker than a direct 2NT over the weak two. Remember that partner will strain to double or overcall if short in the opponents' suit, so the odds are good that he does not have a good hand. Therefore, if you have a normal 14 count and can't double or overcall, the odds favor passing.

[FrancesHinden]

I don't think the HCP requirement is higher in 4th seat, but your stop tends to be a lot more vulnerable. KJx has a fair chance of being a double stop with a weak two opened on your right (with LHO often having doubleton honour if he has an honour), but is rarely better than a single stop with the weak two on your left.