[GriffenMac]

This is a hand from a teams match I played in last night.

You hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

Partner opens and the auction proceeds as follows:

1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦! - 2♠ - 3♣ - 4♣ -

at this point I believe partner is either a 3514 or 3505 shape so ♦s are covered but I was still worried about possible losers in ♥s, ♠s and ♣s. After some thought I bid 4♦ as kickback as if I started cuing I would never be able to determine partner's ♣ holding. Partner responded that he had 2 keycards without the queen. I then reasoned that we most likely had a ♣ loser and still quite possibly a ♥ or ♠ loser and so signed off in 5♣. 6♣ makes quite easily and I would like some advice on how I could have better bid or better thought about the hand in order to get to the slam.

Thanks in advance.

Jonathan

[DWM]

Not too sure how correct this is but here I go

I would have taken the 4♣ bid as a slam try. From that if P is missing two aces and the K and Q of trumps he must have some very nice cards elsewhere to try for slam, especially if he has effectivley 0 points in diamons and a max of 5 in clubs.

Not sure on the percentages here but I usually think/go for slams when it needs one of two finesses to come off.

[mike777]

GriffenMac, on May 15 2007, 11:47 AM, said:

This is a hand from a teams match I played in last night.

You hold:

Dealer: North Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ AQxx ♥ xx ♦ AQx ♣ KTxx

Partner opens and the auction proceeds as follows:

1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦! - 2♠ - 3♣ - 4♣ -

at this point I believe partner is either a 3514 or 3505 shape so ♦s are covered but I was still worried about possible losers in ♥s, ♠s and ♣s. After some thought I bid 4♦ as kickback as if I started cuing I would never be able to determine partner's ♣ holding. Partner responded that he had 2 keycards without the queen. I then reasoned that we most likely had a ♣ loser and still quite possibly a ♥ or ♠ loser and so signed off in 5♣. 6♣ makes quite easily and I would like some advice on how I could have better bid or better thought about the hand in order to get to the slam.

Thanks in advance.

Jonathan

Nicely bid....rkc for clubs now.

No matter what happened on this hand, if you bid like this you are going to win alot. Good luck.

[pclayton]

Sometimes you can get the answer you need in one round of bidding and sometimes it takes two.

2♦ is a good start. I think we can rule out the 3=6=0=4 pattern, but as you mention, 3=5=0=5 and 3=5=1=4 are indistinguishable.

Over 2♠, try 2N. Its forcing, and pard will tell you about the 5th club. Over 3♣, try 4♣, or even 4♦ if thats kickback (it is for me). Over 3N, you should probably pass, since the ♦Q isn't working, and pard could have bid 4N over 2N with significant extras.

[inquiry]

Well here is a first piece of advice, on auctions like this were you bid spades and partner clubs, and then you both raised each other, there is a new number of keycards.. instead of four ACES plus king of "trumps", there are six (four aces and the two kings in the suits you have both bid).

So assuming you want to play "kickback" of 4D, partner would be showing 3 keycards (not two), assuming he has the spade king. You seemed to assume partner was 3-5-1-4 or 3-5-0-5. I think we can exclude the diamond void, as would probably have jumped over 4D to convey info about the void and rather he had even or odd number keycards.

So at this point, the bidding is in 4H. You can bid 4S (assuming we agree that after showing 3 key cards this can not be a signoff). And partner would bid 4NT (no queen in either suit). So far we have partner with

Kxx Axxxx x Axxx

That is barely an opener, much less a slam try. Surely he needs some more "stuff", the club jack probably, and the heart KJ or QJ, and he could have the spade JACK which is clearly worth a trick. Missing the club queen, I would never venture to grand slam on the expected 8 card fit, but there is simply too many "right cards" partner can have to justify his bidding not to bid six.

The certaintly you are missing the club queen, confounded by not knowing about the spade KING is the major cause of your concern. Playing six keycard on auctions like this is helpful. However, some people play (and for good reason), only one partner has a shown a balanced hand and the other partner a two suiter do they use six keycard blackwood.

[Edmunte1]

I liked the bidding. 4♣ over 3♣, being a space consuming bid should show a good hand with lots of controls. It should deny any secial feature like sixth heart, 5th trump, void in diamonds, it should just show a good hand with controls and missing some important small cards (like SQ or !hQ

[Edmunte1]

A hand who wants to be asked about KC (something like Kxx AKxxx x AJxx). As Justin already said when you decided to ask KC, you should declare always the small slam if only one is missing and you have the queen of trumps, or you have all key-cards and you miss the Queen of trumps.

[kenrexford]

Let me see if I understand this auction up to this point.\

Partner opens 1♥, giving him ?-5+-?-? shape with an expectation of 11+ HCP
You respond 1♠, presumably 4+♠, not longer clubs if GF, and probably no heart fit.
Partner rebids 2♣, presumably 0-3/5/0-4/4-5, with insufficient values for a strong jump shift.
You bid 2♦, GF and artificial, with uncertain parameters so far.
Partner bids 2♠, showing more pattern, expected to be 3514 or 3505.
You bid 3♣, seeting trumps with an assurance of 4234 pattern. With longer clubs, you'd have started with 2♣; with longer spades, you'd agree spades; with longer hearts, you'd agree hearts; with 4243, you'd presumably bid notrump. So, partner is assured that you are 4234 pattern. You must also have slam interest, as using 3♣ to ask about whether he has a stiff diamond, and a stiff honor at that, is too esoteric and unproductive. So, partner's calls should logically be cuebids.

Now is when things have broken down, as no one really is assessing what Opener's bids, and lack of bids, must mean.

For me, this is a rather simple analysis. Opener does not have a diamond control beyond that which he has already promised (he did not cue 3♦). Therefore, he does not have a void (must be 3514 pattern, per force) and his stiff diamond is not the Ace. His hearts are not two of the top three; hence, his best holdings in hearts would be AJ1098 (because he bypassed 3NT with such junk outside, the heart suit must be headed by the Ace). He does not have a spade honor; hence, his best holding in spades is Jxx. He does, however, have two of the top three clubs. Plus, by bypassing 3NT, he must not be dead-bang minimum.

So, partner's hand looks, initially, like ♠J10x ♥AJ10xx ♦x ♣AQxx. That's slightly above minimum.

Again, I hold ♠AQxx ♥xx ♦AQx ♣K10xx. I'm not liking this hand all that much. Even if I hear "Two with the Queen," I have great need for a lot of luck to make this slam. What I'd really like to see, which is possible, is the magic hand of ♠J109 ♥AJ109x ♦K ♣AQxx. Now, I might make if spades come in, or if I can establish hearts, assuming that clubs come in safely.

Partner has told an almost complete story in all suits, with the bid question not solvable by RKCB being whether he has that stiff diamond King. RKCB for me would be the cheapest out-of-focus major, which seems to be hearts (4♥). This is really nice, because this allows me to bid 4♦ as Last Train to Clarksville. The obvious feature I must be seeking, one that RKCB will not show, is the stiff King of Diamonds.

So, I'd bid 4♦, LTTC. This creates a neat scenario. Partner can accept this by bidding 4♥ as RKCB. Or, he can bid 4♠, ostensibly a declining of the slam invite and suggesting choice of games, which keeps me declaring 3NT, with safety in the diamond suit. If partner has the expected hand that lacks the diamond King, I can expect four clubs, three spades, two red Aces, and either the spade hook working or the diamond hook working, with hearts as a backup Plan B, and no fear of an opening diamond lead through my A-Q (but a good chance of a diamond lead into my A-Q).

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on May 15 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

You bid 3♣, seeting trumps with an assurance of 4234 pattern. With longer clubs, you'd have started with 2♣; with longer spades, you'd agree spades; with longer hearts, you'd agree hearts; with 4243, you'd presumably bid notrump. So, partner is assured that you are 4234 pattern.

LOL

4144?
5125?
Jxxxx x Axx AKJx?

[GriffenMac]

Thanks to all who have provided suggestions / explanations! Quite a few interesting things to consider.

Jonathan

[han]

Ken's cuebidding argument also seems flawed to me because often you will want to play in 3NT even if opener is exactly 3-5-1-4 and responder is 4-2-3-4. 4H may also still be a possibility. In such an auction I wouldn't play bids as cuebids but rather as concentration of strength, extra length. For example, 3H would show either a strong 5-card heart suit or a 3-6-0-4 distribution. 3D would be a doubt showing bid. 3S suggests playing in a 4-3 fit.

The 4C bid shows real slam interest to me. My experiences with kickback are ver poor, but it is probably safe to play it for experts like Griffenmac.

[han]

Jlall, on May 15 2007, 01:19 PM, said:

Never ask for keycards and then sign off in game missing only 1 or missing none and the queen.

Ah yes, I didn't get this far yet. Understanding this seems even more important than learning kickback.

[cherdano]

How about making a 4♦ cuebid over 4♣? Oh...

[mike777]

cherdano, on May 15 2007, 10:20 PM, said:

How about making a 4♦ cuebid over 4♣? Oh...

In Kickback 4nt is a D cuebid if clubs are trumps.
I just rkc kickback now with this one.

[han]

mike777, on May 15 2007, 10:38 PM, said:

cherdano, on May 15 2007, 10:20 PM, said:

How about making a 4♦ cuebid over 4♣? Oh...

In Kickback 4nt is a D cuebid if clubs are trumps.

He knows (notice the smillie).

Quote

I just  rkc kickback now with this one. 

We know.