[MickyB]

Scoring: IMP

P-(1♠)-X-(2♠)
2NT-(P)-3NT-AP

2♠ showed a max of 8 points. 2NT was Leb. How should NS have bid?

---

[SoTired]

North has a balanced 19. South is announcing a desire to compete and less than about 7 or 8. North decided to convert the leb 2N to 3N game force.

1 - South might want to correct to 4H. Odds are good North has 3 and South's singleton spade implies 3NT may not work out well.

2 - North's 3N was ambitious. Only if South has a max does 3N have a chance. And with only a single spade stopper and no runnable suit, 3N does not look too promising.

[inquiry]

South should double 2♠ as responsive. This is a tad bit light, but, good shape. And there is already an expectation that partner might be balanced and strong (not necessarily however) because RHO didn't bump spades more dramatically and we have only one. OF course LHO could have a boat load of spades, but if you double now and he does, when LHO jumps to 4S, at least you have brought into play the other suits.

I would not worry 1 minute about missing 6H here. It needs heart Kx of Kxx on side, plus clubs 3-3 with the Queen on side, plus they can not ruff a diamond. Partners 3NT bid obviously did not understand 2NT as lebehnshol, but looking at 4Spades in his hand, I can't imagine how this could have fooled him. 3NT over lebenshol here is just crazy. Almost as crazy as bidding 2NT as lebehnsol with this hand. I assume instead of lebeshol per se, you meant this as good/bad so when you support "hearts" on your next bid, it will be denying as much value as a direct 3♥ competitive raise. That is more logical explaination.

I suggest...

1S - Dbl - 2S - Dbl
Ps - 2NT - Pa - 3H
Ps - 4H - all pass

3H - five hearts, not strong enough for direct 3H bid, or if you use transfer here, you could have bid 3D to tranfer to 3H after openers 2NT showing a hand too good for direct 1NT overcall.

[ewj]

Looks a bit unlucky to me.
I don't think south should make a responsive double. He/She wants to compete to 3[H] opposite a normal take out double. I certainly don't think south should "convert" to 4H...

[SoTired]

inquiry, on May 9 2007, 08:34 AM, said:

South should double 2♠ as responsive. ...

I disagree with a responsive dbl here; not with 5♥. Use the responsive dbl of a major to show both minors. When u have the other major, just bid it.

I think the only alternative to a leb 2N is a direct 3H, but with only 6, you may be a little light.

[whereagles]

Bidding was fine. You just got fixed.

The only sensible way I see to bid 4♥ is doubler rebidding a 3♣, risking a pass-out, but finding out of pard's suit if it's a red one. The responsive dbl seems like a double-dummy argument to me (sorry ben ^^).

[inquiry]

whereagles, on May 9 2007, 09:15 AM, said:

Bidding was fine. You just got fixed.

The only sensible way I see to bid 4♥ is doubler rebidding a 3♣, risking a pass-out, but finding out of pard's suit if it's a red one. The responsive dbl seems like a double-dummy argument to me (sorry ben ^^).

No need to apologize.. it takes you guys a while to learn how to bid, and how to evaluate suits. I am willing to wait for your all to catch up.

First, so far we all agree that this is not a 3♥ bid (it is actually closer to a direct 3♥ bid than many assume). I plan on making a responsive doulbe and then bidding 3♥ to convey this meaning. Partner will know I have five hearts when I pull whatever thing he bids. He will also know that I have less than a direct 3♥ bid. And he will know I have hearts should the opponents bump the auction.

Second, this is not "bad luck". North only has to look in his hand at his spades. He needs 9 running tricks because there is only one spade stopper and he has no source of tricks in his hands (off the top at least). Even if partner has AQxxx of clubs, he will need heart king onside and clubs 3-2 for game to make. With AQ-sixth, surely he would have bid 3♣ directly rather than "lebenshol"

The way to give a gentle game invite in hearts is through responsive double. Just as a negative double sometimes shows a five card suit without the values for a free bid, the responsive double can have five --- but generally when it does have five in the only unbid major, it will be a pathetic suit like this one.

[inquiry]

SoTired, on May 9 2007, 09:12 AM, said:

inquiry, on May 9 2007, 08:34 AM, said:

South should double 2♠ as responsive. ...

I disagree with a responsive dbl here; not with 5♥. Use the responsive dbl of a major to show both minors. When u have the other major, just bid it.

I think the only alternative to a leb 2N is a direct 3H, but with only 6, you may be a little light.

Just bid it shows more value. Partner will not be confused after, say

1S-X-2S-X
P -3C-P-3H

He will know you have five and not enough to bid 3H right way.

[whereagles]

inquiry, on May 9 2007, 02:40 PM, said:

No need to apologize.. it takes you guys a while to learn how to bid, and how to evaluate suits. I am willing to wait for your all to catch up.

Are you trying to be sarcastic or funny?

[inquiry]

whereagles, on May 9 2007, 09:49 AM, said:

inquiry, on May 9 2007, 02:40 PM, said:

No need to apologize.. it takes you guys a while to learn how to bid, and how to evaluate suits. I am willing to wait for your all to catch up.

Are you trying to be sarcastic or funny?

A little of both, I guess, but more funny than sarcastic.

The problem here is with the entire concept of "lebhenshol" on this auction (good bad is a little better). If you have a BAD HAND, you don't need to bid. Partner has another chance. 2NT really should be either natural, or two places to play (which of course can include hearts if you like, or only be the minors). So I would throw 2NT as the very weak hands right out the window.

The responsive double can bring the two places to play back into the picture, or can allow you to show a higher suit (in this case hearts) when partner bids the lower suit. There is a concept expressed above that with four hearts just bid them, but the problem with that is as much as we would like to believe when partner doubles 1S he has four hearts, a lot of times, well he doesn;t. This hand is just one such example. To preserve the responsive double for the two non-expected suits, is just too restrictive.

[MickyB]

inquiry, on May 9 2007, 03:58 PM, said:

The problem here is with the entire concept of "lebhenshol" on this auction (good bad is a little better)

How are the two different?

[Apollo81]

I think 3NT was a terrible bid. I'd have bid 3♠. North should know exactly what will happen to 3NT (they blow your stopper then opening bidder gets in with his entry)

[FrancesHinden]

I find using 2NT as lebensohl (which to my mind is merely a synonym for good/bad in this auction) is very useful. Using the responsive double to show _either_ two places to play _or_ a weak hand with 5 hearts is just about playable, but using it with a weak hand with a 5-card minor isn't. And if you double 2S, and partner bids 3D, and you bid 3H, partner doesn't know if you started with 4-4 in hearts and clubs or if you have a single-suited heart hand.

As for 'not wanting to bid with a weak hand' all this is doing is splitting the range for a 3-suit bid into two, which is definitely very useful on this auction.

I think the real problem on the hand is North's 3NT bid. When I first played competitive bridge, our university B team was given an ironcast rule: never raise 2NT lebensohl to 3NT on a balanced hand and it's a good one. Opposite a hand that wants to compete with a 5-card minor, North simply isn't worth 3NT. Just bid 3C. When partner bids 3H you can raise to 4 (or you might bid 3NT over 3D). To make 3NT opposite a club suit needs AQxxx, the heart finesse (very likely right) and clubs 3-2, which seems like too much to ask.

[whereagles]

Ben, you're repeating yourself. This ain't the beginner forum: we all know what a responsive dbl is and how it should be used. In fact, most of us would even agree it's ok to use one in this hand (maybe not ideal, but ok).

But you are, nonetheless, arguing as a results-merchant. If you held instead

x
AJ9xx
Jxx
xxxx

you would bid a lebenshol 2NT on the spot and North's rebid problem would STILL be the same. (Obviously, you'd need to tweak his hand a bit, keeping ♠Axxx and the 4333)

[ewj]

I think I agree with what Frances says...your spades aren't good enough to bid 3NT.

[FrancesHinden]

whereagles, on May 9 2007, 04:58 PM, said:

Ben, you're repeating yourself. This ain't the beginner forum: we all know what a responsive dbl is and how it should be used. In fact, most of us would even agree it's ok to use one in this hand (maybe not ideal, but ok).

Well, no. Ben is arguing for a different use for the responsive double from the way I have always played it.

[inquiry]

MickyB, on May 9 2007, 10:09 AM, said:

inquiry, on May 9 2007, 03:58 PM, said:

The problem here is with the entire concept of "lebhenshol" on this auction (good bad is a little better)

How are the two different?

My view of lebehnshol is an attempt to get out of trouble. That is it is meant as an escape mechanism (other than after 1NT-overcall-2NT). So for example, 2S-DBL-Pass-? I use 2NT to suggest I want to signoff... .FEAR driven. The world may not agree with this. On the auction here, 1S-X-2S, I do not need to be FEARFUL. I can simple pass, and we are out of trouble. So any bid (2NT, 3y, dbl) is an effort to improve the score. We can use responsive DBL to get partner to cooperate. We can bid our suit or pass and wait for partners reopening double on many hands when we just want to do the very minimum. The pass works best if we have several spades, and a weakish hand with a suit. As partner will balance when it is right a high frequency of those times (as long as we have some spade legnth).

This allows you to use 2NT for the minors, and dbl to suggest two places to play. I play the responsive double PROMISES hearts (not denies it). I would bid 2NT with similiar hand without hearts. If I make a responsive double and then pull, as noted above, the heart suit is five but I lacked the stuff for a direct 3H bid.

The problem I have with 2NT being "good bad" (or lebnenshol like here) is that it is a small target. If you bid 2NT partner will not know how to evalute his club holdings. If he bids 3♣ and clubs is your suit, then he may miss a game he wants to bid if he bids only 3♣. The answer to this is to use paradox responses, where opener bypasses 3C if he wants more if your suit is clubs. Then he turns to diamond. Does he want game if your suit is diamonds too? The asnwer is yes, so he has to bid past that, then hearts? Absoluetly, and if he bids 3♠ you may miss your 3NT if you ahve a running minor, so he bids 3NT. Playing these paradox responses, advancer has to pull to 4H because 3NT accepted game tries in all three side suits and showed a spade stopper in addition.

But what I like is to pass with weakish one suiters, and wait further developments (exception is weakish one suiter when it is the master suit of the three -- in this case hearts). And to bid 2NT with minor two suiter, and responsive double with the other major and a minor. With a hand I want to compete to just 3♥ on, I make the responsive double and pull 3 of a minor or pass 3 of the major. Sometimes partner will jump to 4 of the major which works out ok.

So compare...
1S-X-2S-X; P-3C-P-3H auction too
1S-X-2S-3H

the second auction shows a better suit/hand than the first, both promise hearts. Interestingly, the first auction promises FIVE hearts and weak hand, while the second hand also tends to promise five hearts, because with four and no-forching values I still make a responsive double. But the second hand promises more values.

[inquiry]

i understand the concept of good bad 2NT and it is ok, I play it. When I do, I use the PARADOX type responses in my last post. So as opener, I would have bid 3NT and it would not have been a terrible bid, as partner would not be passing with hearts, and if he has a long minor, we might be able to snag 9 quick tricks.

The advantage of GB/2NT is undeniable (although reversing it might be better yet, where the GOOD hand bid 2NT, and the bad hand bids it suit directly on auctions like this, call it the Bad/Good 2NT). In normal GB 2NT a "free bid" of new suit over 2S show more value than going through 2NT, so you compete with good hands (bid a suit, presumably not forcing), or bid 2NT as a warning you are just making a competitive bid, nor a forward going on.

For people who like to compete this is intoxicating. You can bid with good hands and with bad hands. But if you have a bad hand an only one suit (not two places to play) you put a lot of pressure on the auction to use it. I guess you could raise the requirements for what is bad, thus making what is good even better. You could go so far that a new suit over 2♠ is forcing since you didn't use bad. When I have weak hand and TWO places to play, I like to bid when weak. If I have only one place to play and I am weak, then I prefer to be more timid. The exception is when I hold the "expected suit" (in this case hearts).

And while we are on the subject, I find it reassuring that for me, 1S-x-2s-3H promises five hearts. Not because I need five hearts for us to play in hearts, four should be enough most of the time. But it helps partner evaluate fit if he can rely on five plus. We don't miss hearts when I make a "responsive double" if he has four because he knows I have four (or five if weak).

[MickyB]

These hands were held by my oppo. I would have been inclined to bid 3♣ on the strong hand, and felt 3NT was likely to have issues on a spade lead, but wasn't sure if I'd have corrected to 4♥ on partner's hand.

I've no strong feelings on whether 2NT should be scrambling or leb, given that you aren't getting your suit in immediately if you bid 2NT Leb.

[Fluffy]

North spades are not good enough for this bidding, he can bid 3♣ or 3♠ better.