[Badmonster]

In my notes on this raise, I wrote that you want a hand that will play well opposite a shapely hand without too many queens and jacks. I'm not really sure what I meant. Or why. Can someone explain some theory for me? Why are some 9 point hands a single raise and others a mixed raise?

[Winstonm]

Quite simply it is about evaluation of a hand - not all 9-counts are equal.

Foremost, a mixed raise needs a 9-card fit, so 4 trumps is mandatory.
Second, the quality of the cards are considered.
Third, the shape of the hand is considered.

xxxx, Axx, Axxx, xx. In a spade contract, this hand is quite valuable as each ace is almost certain to cash, the aces will add value to any secondary cards in partner's hands in those suits, a ruffing value is a near certainty, and the 4th spade ensures a 9-card fit.

xxxx, Kxx, QJx, QJx In a spade contract, this hand is of dubious value, as the worth of the high cards is unknown, there is only a 4th round ruffing value, and although a 9-card fit is assured there are no added adjustments.

The first hand would be a proper mixed raise; the second is worth no more than a simple raise.

Hope that helps.

[cherdano]

I think there is a little more to this than what Winston wrote.
For which hands by opener is a 4th trump really useful? Well, it is of most use to him when he has shape, because with shape you may have to ruff (either declarer having to ruff in his short suit, or dummy ruffing out declarer's second suit until it is established).
I think it is most useful to define a mixed raise as a hand whose honors are also useful opposite a shapely hand. Then opener is entitled to bid game with a nice shapely hand but no extras in high cards. And when opener has a shapely hand, then aces and kings are almost certain to be useful, while queens and jacks are doubtful. Let me give some examples:

Axxxx x xx AKxxx: This is an obvious 4S bid after 1S-3S (IMO). But game has no chance opposite Winston's second hand.
AJTxx AKxx xxx x: I think this is also a game bid after 1S-3S, although I would not make a game try after 1S-2S.

I think mixed raises are most useful when you think of them as constructive a tool to get to some games you would otherwise miss, not as a preempt.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Axxxx x xx AKxxx: This is an obvious 4S bid after 1S-3S (IMO). But game has no chance opposite Winston's second hand.
AJTxx AKxx xxx x: I think this is also a game bid after 1S-3S, although I would not make a game try after 1S-2S.

I hope I made my point clear and your two example hands work well.

I said that xxxx, Axx, Axxx, xx is worth a mixed raise.
Opposite Axxxx, x, xx, AKxxx it produces game.

Yet I went on to say that xxxx, Kxx, QJx, QJx is not a mixed raise - it's only a simple raise.

Opposite AJ10xx, AKxx, xxx, x it only produces 9 tricks - maybe only 8.

Although I think I uderstand your point, in that a mixed raise should be a hand of value to a minimum shapely opening - maybe we are saying the same things in a different way is all.

Another way to say it is that a mixed raise is a hand where a limit raise would be an overbid and a simple raise would be an underbid - the classic 2 1/2 raise with the proviso that it hold 4 trump.

Besides, aces, notice that cards in combinations are worth more than isolated cards, so xxxx, KJx, KQxx, xx is a better hand than Jxxx, Kxx, Qxxx, Kx, although both are 9-counts.

[MFA]

My style is not nearly as selective as the previous posters'. I think the purists really don't get the job done in pratice when it comes to getting fast to the 3-level.

A mixed raise for me is 4card support and 7-9 scattered hcp. I don't demand particularly pure hands, since they are rather rare. 4333 hands could be downgraded, but else I will offer a mixed raise with almost all hands in range.

The example hand with 2 aces would actually make me nervous, since that is quite unusual for my mixed raises, and partner might misevaluate. So rarely will I have exactly 8hcp in 2 naked aces.

[Winstonm]

MFA, on Apr 15 2007, 04:46 PM, said:

My style is not nearly as selective as the previous posters'. I think the purists really don't get the job done in pratice when it comes to getting fast to the 3-level.

A mixed raise for me is 4card support and 7-9 scattered hcp. I don't demand particularly pure hands, since they are rather rare. 4333 hands could be downgraded, but else I will offer a mixed raise with almost all hands in range.

The example hand with 2 aces would actually make me nervous, since that is quite unusual for my mixed raises, and partner might misevaluate. So rarely will I have exactly 8hcp in 2 naked aces.

What you say is valid, as it depends on partnership agreement as to the purpose of the mixed raise. If you are looking for constructive reasons, then you would have better hands; if you use the bid as more of a destructive, room-consuming bid, then weaker hands could be used.

[pclayton]

Unless your ODR is poor; xxxx, QJxx, KJxx, Qx, make the mixed raise. 6-9 is a good guideline, unless it had more than 2 1/2 cover cards. Two aces and a doubleton is fine for the call.

[whereagles]

I think meckwell do play 1M-3M as mixed raise, 6-9. However, their 1M is limited.. with 0-5 they can just blast 4M on distributional hands, so I'm not sure this can be extended to other systems.

[pclayton]

I play 1 maj - 3 maj as mixed, and I think its a better use than preemptive.

If anything, you want to preempt opposite a limited opener, and not make a value bid, but whatever.

[mikestar]

xxxx Axx Axxx xx is a clear limit raise to me.

[Badmonster]

---

I thought it looked like a mixed raise. Was I on track?

[awm]

I think the hand given is a little good for a mixed raise. Mixed raise is normally about 8-10 points in support including four trumps. Something like:

Kxxx
Axxx
Qxx
xx

is a mixed raise, as is:

Kxxx
Axxx
xxxx
x

I think the combination of nine hcp and the singleton is too much, and bumps this into the limit raise category.

Basically you have four classes of raises which differ by about a queen. There's GF raise, limit raise, "good" single raise, and "bad" single raise. A mixed raise is a "good" single raise with four trumps. A preemptive raise is a "bad" single raise with four trumps.

[mike777]

Badmonster, on Apr 25 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

---

I thought it looked like a mixed raise. Was I on track?

Dead minimum limit raise example for me.

[MFA]

Badmonster, on Apr 25 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ Kxxx ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qxx ♣ x

I thought it looked like a mixed raise. Was I on track?

No, I think not.
I think you are in the maximum zone of a limit raise.