[kgr]

Scoring: MP

1H-(DBL)-2H-(3D)
-(P)??

---

You started with a DBL because you system does not allow you to show 2-suiter S-C in this position.
Opps are intermediate and you believe that 2H at least showed 5 ditribution points.
What do you bid now? MP: 3S or 4S?

[Free]

Why did I ever double? If you can't show 2 suits, at least show one...

[Impact]

I don't like doubles on 5+5+ hands as I generally consider that with extreme 2-suiters you should show the 2 suits (5530 with a void in their suit MAY be an exception when the hand is worth only one bid) and the level is LOW.

However, you have been lucky. After the free bid by advancer, my new suit bid of 3S will be forcing.....wtp?

regards

[the hog]

Free, on Apr 17 2007, 07:15 AM, said:

Why did I ever double? If you can't show 2 suits, at least show one...

Totally agree with Free. You have snookered yourself. 3S would be forcing now, so that is what I bid and pull 3NT to 4C.

[cherdano]

The_Hog, on Apr 16 2007, 06:25 PM, said:

Free, on Apr 17 2007, 07:15 AM, said:

Why did I ever double?  If you can't show 2 suits, at least show one... 

Totally agree with Free. You have snookered yourself. 3S would be forcing now, so that is what I bid and pull 3NT to 4C.

Except that when partner bids the expected 4♦ (or 5♦) over 3♠, will never be able to get out of the hole we dug by doubling.

[Impact]

cherdano, on Apr 16 2007, 08:32 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 16 2007, 06:25 PM, said:

Free, on Apr 17 2007, 07:15 AM, said:

Why did I ever double?  If you can't show 2 suits, at least show one... 

Totally agree with Free. You have snookered yourself. 3S would be forcing now, so that is what I bid and pull 3NT to 4C.

Except that when partner bids the expected 4♦ (or 5♦) over 3♠, will never be able to get out of the hole we dug by doubling.

Well over 4D, I bid 5C - so that is not the problem.

I have some difficulty working out what sort of hand would make only a simple 3D bid after my takeout double, but then jump to 5D over my forcing 3S (which presumably cancelled the message of the original double as to support for all unbid suits).

To give you an idea of how bizarre I would consider such, I would assume that his 5D bid is actually a cue for S (too good a hand to merely bid 4S, no H control since the 3S bid is effectively unlimited now!!!) eg Axx xxx KQxxx xx is certainly consistent with the bidding (or interchange a H with a C etc). Of course he might even be better eg AK xxx Kxxxx xxx or similar!!!

[Edmunte1]

Agree with Free. Start with 1♠. Now after double 3♠ is mandatory

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3S, which is strong, but nonforcing, at least for me.
If partner passes, you wont miss anything.

And of course a Michaels Cue would have been
perfect.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

3♠ + some nr. of clubs seems fair.

[bid_em_up]

What would an immediate 2H have shown? Spades/diamonds?

Personally, I think that you are putting yourself in a bind by defining the direct cue as specific suits (♠/♦), and then not having a way to show ♠/♣ as well. Either you have that all suit combinations defined, or you should play the direct cue as spades+either minor.

Btw, my partnerships use a jump to 3C as showing top/bottom. (Spades/clubs in this case). Yes, we give up a 3C weak jump overcall by doing so. Its a tradeoff.

jmoo.

[cherdano]

bid_em_up, on Apr 17 2007, 07:42 AM, said:

What would an immediate 2H have shown? Spades/diamonds?

Personally, I think that you are putting yourself in a bind by defining the direct cue as specific suits (♠/♦), and then not having a way to show ♠/♣ as well. Either you have that all suit combinations defined, or you should play the direct cue as spades+either minor.

Btw, my partnerships use a jump to 3C as showing top/bottom. (Spades/clubs in this case). Yes, we give up a 3C weak jump overcall by doing so. Its a tradeoff.

So your bid with this hand would be?

[kgr]

I added a poll to this post. I never thought that 3S was forcing. For me it shows a very good hand, but it is not forcing.

These were both hands:

Scoring: MP

---

(1H)-DBL-(2H)-3D
(P)-3S-All Pass
North has ♠J and ♠'s are 3-2, which is all you need to make 4♠.
(I had the North hand and couldn't resist to bid 3♦ and thought I said it all then, so I passed 3♠)

[cherdano]

kgr, on Apr 17 2007, 03:49 PM, said:

I added a poll to this post. I never thought that 3S was forcing. For me it shows a very good hand, but it is not forcing.

Very good hand opposite free bid = game force. Are you sure you would have thought it non-forcing from the other table, too, i.e. if you hadn't just made a free bid with 4 hcp?

Anyway, I think it is clearly better to play it as forcing (unless you double-and-bid on semi-balanced 16-17 counts).

[kgr]

cherdano, on Apr 17 2007, 11:56 PM, said:

Anyway, I think it is clearly better to play it as forcing (unless you double-and-bid on semi-balanced 16-17 counts).

It is our style that an overcall is max. 15/16 HCP. With more we start with a DBL.

[MFA]

I think it's clear to bid 1♠ instead of double (absent a convention, of course). 3♠ now is forcing or it will be absolutely impossible to bid sensibly with strong hands without clear direction.

[jdonn]

Agree with the consensus. It was wrong to double to begin with, but 3♠ now given that condition, which is forcing.

[bid_em_up]

cherdano, on Apr 17 2007, 10:05 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Apr 17 2007, 07:42 AM, said:

What would an immediate 2H have shown? Spades/diamonds?

Personally, I think that you are putting yourself in a bind by defining the direct cue as specific suits (♠/♦), and then not having a way to show ♠/♣ as well.  Either you have that all suit combinations defined, or you should play the direct cue as spades+either minor.

Btw, my partnerships use a jump to 3C as showing top/bottom. (Spades/clubs in this case).  Yes, we give up a 3C weak jump overcall by doing so.  Its a tradeoff.

So your bid with this hand would be?

My initial bid would have been a direct 4H and not X, showing excellent hand, at least 5-5 (usually 6-5 or better) in spades and an unspecified minor, partner bids 4N to ask which minor. Partner should bid 4S on xx or better of spades, imo, unless his minor suit holdings are such that he would prefer 5 of either minor. I can't give a good answer for what I would bid now as I would have boxed myself in (essentially, I committed the hand to spades, unless partner bid clubs) when I originally doubled. Under the conditions given, I guess I have to bid 3S, and yes, it should be forcing. If I am going to double and then bid over partners freely bid 3D, then new suit should be forcing.

The issue I was attempting to address was the original posters statement of "You started with a DBL because you system does not allow you to show 2-suiter S-C in this position."

This implied (to me, at least) that his system allows him to show 2 suiters in spades/diamonds, or both minors, but not spades and clubs, which puts his system in a bind (or so it would appear) when he holds this particular hand type, even when not this strong.

I would bid 3C directly on a weaker hand that is 5-5 (or even 6-5) in the blacks on this auction.

[kgr]

bid_em_up, on Apr 18 2007, 05:13 AM, said:

This implied (to me, at least) that his system allows him to show 2 suiters in spades/diamonds, or both minors, but not spades and clubs, which puts his system in a bind (or so it would appear) when he holds this particular hand type, even when not this strong.

correct.
I simply don't like to overcall two-suited hand where one of the suits is unknown (cue showing other M and unknown minor).