[microcap]

playing a live team match against good opponents but you dont know much about their style.

4th hand you hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

.

LHO opens weak 2♠ (they are not playing multi). pass-pass to you---what is your bid?

[Apollo81]

If you have 3♠ stopper asking available then I would bid that

Otherwise I'd just bid 5♦

[inquiry]

3♠ ... and pass if partner bids the desired 3NT, or bid 6NT if partner leaps to 4NT.

[kenrexford]

Tjis is more fun after 3♠-P-P-? Now, I'll bid 3NT.

After 2♠-P-P-?, 3♠ is as obvious as you can get. (Checked and made sure -- yep, not in B/I again.)

[microcap]

OK, I totally disagree with all of you but I will give up quickly.

[Apollo81]

microcap, on Mar 30 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

OK, I totally disagree with all of you but I will give up quickly.

What do you consider the problem caused by a stopper asking 3♠?

The hand is pretty much ideal for that bid.

[microcap]

i just feel that double is far better, you will miss tons of slams with 3♠-3NT.

Partner has some spades, as RHO didnt raise. I keep wondering what will happen when he holds J9xx Kxxx x Axxx or some such hand---- I cant imagine finding slam then after 3♠, but i sure can after doubling first.

[microcap]

I think x Qjx Akqjxxx Kx is far better suited for 3 spade bid.

[jdonn]

microcap, on Mar 30 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

i just feel that double is far better, you will miss tons of slams with 3♠-3NT.

Partner has some spades, as RHO didnt raise.  I keep wondering what will happen when he holds J9xx Kxxx x Axxx or some such hand---- I cant imagine finding slam then after 3♠, but i sure can after doubling first.

If you feel the odds of missing slam are too great, which is a fair point, you should bid 3♠ anyway. Then if partner bids 3NT you can pull to 4♦ which shows a solid suit and good hand for slam, and you can respect a 4NT signoff by partner or else cooperate in whatever he does.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Mar 30 2007, 10:47 AM, said:

microcap, on Mar 30 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

i just feel that double is far better, you will miss tons of slams with 3♠-3NT.

Partner has some spades, as RHO didnt raise.  I keep wondering what will happen when he holds J9xx Kxxx x Axxx or some such hand---- I cant imagine finding slam then after 3♠, but i sure can after doubling first.

If you feel the odds of missing slam are too great, which is a fair point, you should bid 3♠ anyway. Then if partner bids 3NT you can pull to 4♦ which shows a solid suit and good hand for slam, and you can respect a 4NT signoff by partner or else cooperate in whatever he does.

Or just bid 4N over 3N: I frankly don't understand the logic behind objecting to 3♠, unless you play that 3N ends all auctions...

[microcap]

so when partner holds J10xx xxxx x qxxx --- and you go on after 3NT....you lose 4 top tricks in NT and 3 in 5♦ whereas you still have an easy 3NT you have just run out of.

3♠ takes up too much room and asks for something that double will also get the answer to. As above, 2♠-p-p-x-p-2NT-p-3NT end of story.

[mike777]

Can we just agree it is pretty tough to find underpoint slams after a preempt and try for game first? Point counter here.

[mikeh]

microcap, on Mar 30 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

so when partner holds J10xx xxxx x qxxx --- and you go on after 3NT....you lose 4 top tricks in NT and 3 in 5♦ whereas you still have an easy 3NT you have just run out of.

3♠ takes up too much room and asks for something that double will also get the answer to.  As above, 2♠-p-p-x-p-2NT-p-3NT  end of story.

A very large proportion of expert pairs use [2♠] P [P] x [P] 2N as lebensohl, so it seems highly unlikely that we could safely bid 3N after this start... so this gets us back to 3♠ initially, dosen't it?

Now, if you use 2N as natural, I still doubt that many would find that bid with J10xx xxxx x Qxxx, as an example. I suspect most would take 2N, natural, as about a 10 count, maybe a little less. Say AQx xxx Kxxx Jxxx: ♠ too short to want to defend, but enough to suggest game opposite a good balancing double.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Mar 30 2007, 12:19 PM, said:

microcap, on Mar 30 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

so when partner holds J10xx xxxx x qxxx --- and you go on after 3NT....you lose 4 top tricks in NT and 3 in 5♦ whereas you still have an easy 3NT you have just run out of.

3♠ takes up too much room and asks for something that double will also get the answer to.   As above, 2♠-p-p-x-p-2NT-p-3NT  end of story.

A very large proportion of expert pairs use [2♠] P [P] x [P] 2N as lebensohl, so it seems highly unlikely that we could safely bid 3N after this start... so this gets us back to 3♠ initially, dosen't it?

Now, if you use 2N as natural, I still doubt that many would find that bid with J10xx xxxx x Qxxx, as an example. I suspect most would take 2N, natural, as about a 10 count, maybe a little less. Say AQx xxx Kxxx Jxxx: ♠ too short to want to defend, but enough to suggest game opposite a good balancing double.

Exactly, partner would not bid 2NT with your example if it were natural, it shows a better hand. And anyway if you bid that way won't you miss slam anyway? Or is partner supposed to continue with Axxx Kxx xxx Qxx or something?

You can't have your cake and eat it to, if you want to try for slam you have to go beyond game. Maybe on partner's worst possible hand 3NT is your limit but you have slam opposite better hands, but you simply have to weigh the odds and either try or not.

[bid_em_up]

Other faults with double after 2♠-p-p:

1) Do you really want to defend 2♠ doubled? Even if partner can take 3 spade tricks, you are taking 1 heart and 1 diamond and probably one club for -1 vs. your game/slam.
2) What are you going to do if partner leaps to 4♥? Is 5♦ to play or a cue for hearts?
3) What are you going to do if partner leaps to 4♣? (This one isn't quite as bad as the leap to 4H, though, as 5♦ is clearly to play, but I would probably bid 6♦ on the basis that partner is likely to hold AQxxxx for the 4♣ bid).


2♠-p-p-3♠ simply creates a forcing auction asking for a spade stop. Now partner knows you have a source of tricks (a suit of your own). His first priority is to show a spade stop, if he has one. You are still free to continue on over 3N, if you are that interested in slam.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure how partner is going to miss a slam here. I might, but partner won't.

What I mean:

3♠ says "bid 3NT if you have a spade stopper." This is not a meaningless gesture. I'm not simply being cruel to partner, planning to laugh when he goes for his life with QJx and out. I actually think he'll make. Soooooo,

I must have a plan for nine tricks.

Give partner three tricks, and he will investigate slam.

TADA!

[whereagles]

I would just bid 3♦ and hope pard doesn't pass. I got indoctrinated by R/S to dislike dbl + pull

[han]

To my mind 3S says more than "do you have a stopper partner?". It shows a strong single suited hand with a minor. It seems the obvious bid with this hand.

[skjaeran]

Hannie, on Mar 31 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

To my mind 3S says more than "do you have a stopper partner?". It shows a strong single suited hand with a minor. It seems the obvious bid with this hand.

Absolutely agree.
This is no bidding problem.
If this hand isn't suited for 3♠ as a stopper ask, you'll never find a suited hand.